Mitt the Mormon

I can’t help myself. I like Mitt Romney. I like his sunny optimism; I like his manifest competence (I really like that); I like most of his political stands; I like his committed marriage; and I like his looks, which I think are usefully telegenic. I recognize, however, that his Mormonism may be a roadblock between him and the White House. In the PBS documentary about the Mormons, a show that is either interesting in a boring way, or boring in an interesting way, and one that I am watching ever so slowly on TiVo, I heard that something like 25-45% of Americans would refuse to vote for Mitt for no other reason than the fact that he’s a Mormon.

I’ve thought about it a lot, and concluded that these worried people are right, because Mormonism is clearly a very scary religion. These people will do anything to gain converts, including beheading people. Oh, wait. That’s not right. It’s the Islamists who behead people to try to get them to convert. The Mormons just send their young men out onto the streets to talk about God’s love and their Prophet Joseph Smith. It’s not a religious message I can get behind, but there’s no violence in the message itself, nor is there violence threatened to those who refuse to listen to the message. So that’s not a reason to fear a Mormon in the White House.

Oh, I know. We should fear a Mormon in the White House because Mormons, if they do succeed in converting people, and those people become apostates (that is, they revert to their former faith), Mormons behead them. Whoops. I’m wrong again. That’s Islamists who kill apostates. Mormons, it turns out, are a little careless about maintaining their new converts, and about 50% of them just drift away never to be heard of again by the Mormon Church, according to the PBS documentary.

But surely we should be worried that, if Romney gains the White House, Mormons will impose their “lifestyle” on us, forcing us to give up pork, cloistering our women or making them wear burqas, mandating polygamy, killing Jews, marginalizing other Christians, stoning adulterers, cutting off thieves’ hands, etc. Oh, darn it. I just can’t seem to keep these things straight. That’s what the Islamists will do if they gain political ascendancy. I think it’s highly doubtful that the Mormons will do anything of the sort, even if they themselves eschew alcohol and caffeine. The fact of the matter is that Mormons have proven themselves to be exemplary American citizens whose only agenda is to thrive in the American way of life and, through positive example, to convince people to join their faith. As I noted, their faith has no attraction to me, but I’m not worried that, should Mitt become President, I’ll suddenly be placed in some fringe Mormon polygamous harem.

So really, if you cut away all the sillY stuff, the concern about Mitt’s religion boils down to people doubting Mitt’s ability to think straight. I mean, how smart can someone be who believes that Joseph Smith was a Prophet who received tablets from an angel recounting an alternative Biblical history that took place in America? Well, he’s as smart as anyone who believes in a specific religious faith. We believe because we believe. I’m not a Catholic, so I don’t believe in transubstantiation, but I don’t think less of those who hold that as a central religious doctrine. I’m not a Christian, so I don’t believe that Christ was the son of God, who was crucified and resurrected. I believe in him only as a great teacher, a Rabbi, and, as President Bush said, a philosopher. But I think all of you know I don’t question your faith, or the fruits of your faith (compassion, humanism, morality), and I stand ready to be proven wrong about my disbelief at the end of days. I’m not even a religious Jew, so I have strong doubts about the religious or supernatural aspects of the Torah, even though, again, I embrace the values flowing from that Book.

And really, values are what it’s all about. To me, faith is faith. For that reason, I would never challenge your belief system. However, I will celebrate your faith if the values that flow from it mesh with my values. To that end, I believe that Romney, through his religious beliefs, has values that are in harmony with mine — and with most mainstream conservatives. If your doubts about his intelligence flow solely from his religious beliefs, it may be a shortsighted mistake to use that doubt to turn your back on a candidate who is manifestly competent, who has a great political track record, and who will not to do you anything you don’t wish to have done.

UPDATE: I was trying to think of a situation in which I would look at a Presidential candidate in the same way those who are concerned about Mormonism look at Mitt. The closest I could get was the Jews for Jesus. I’ve always had a problem with that organization, which I think is theologically untenable. Since about 33 C.E., there’s been a name for Jews for Jesus — Christians.

I mean, the gaping divide between Judaism and Christianity is Christ himself. Once you’ve embraced Christ’s existence and his teachings, you’ve pretty much left Judaism behind. While they spring from the some roots, they’ve developed into different trees. And while I have no problem with people following their beliefs, and respect those who genuinely make the transition from one faith to another, I’ve always thought that Jews for Jesus represent the foolishness of people trying to slither around in an impossible doctrinal no-man’s land, only to end up being neither fish nor fowl, but some misshapen and useless creature in between.

(And I know that, about now, some of you are saying, “Come on, Bookworm. Don’t pull your punches. Tell us what you really think.”)

So, how would I feel if Mitt were a member of Jews for Jesus, a group that really gets my goat, rather than a Mormon, a group I just sort of observe from a distance? Certainly, I’d feel a whole lot less respect for him. I’d have my doubts about his intellect in light of the fact that he’s holding what I consider an intellectually ludicrous position. He’d stop being one of my top choices. BUT (there’s always a but), let’s try a thought experiment in an alternative reality where people’s politics are the same, but their religious beliefs are lined up a bit differently.

Imagine, if you will, an election where Mitt is still Mitt in all respects but one. Rather than being a Mormon, he’s a Jew for Jesus. And imagine that his opponent, whether Edwards, Obama or Hillary, rather than being a mainstream liberal Christian is, in fact, a devout Jew. Under those circumstances, despite my distaste for Mitt’s religious choice, and my concern that it represents a profound intellectual failing, I’d vote for Mitt.

The fact is, I’m not electing these people to be my religious leaders (thank goodness). I’m considering each of them as a potential political leader during times of national uncertainty. And as to that, while Mitt would clearly be someone handicapped by a peculiar religious monomania, I would nevertheless feel safer with the country in his hands than I would if it were in Hillary’s hands, no matter her impeccable (and entirely imaginary) Jewish credentials.

UPDATE II: My sister voiced one other concern about Mormons, which is the fact that Church leaders are still having revelations, something that, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, stopped thousands of years ago. As recently as the early 1970s, the Church leaders had a revelation that their teachings about blacks (that blacks were inferior) were entirely wrong, and they revised Church doctrine to make blacks full members in all respects. At the end of the 19th Century, they had a semi-revelation (it apparently was never stated in official “revelation” form) that plural marriage was a bad thing. I’ve also heard that, after they acquired a large interest in the Pepsi-Cola company they had a revelation that had them backing down on the evils of caffeine, but that may just be an urban legend.

My sister acknowledges that most of the post-Joseph Smith revelations have been aimed at bringing Mormons more in sync with mainstream America, but worries that having a member in America’s most executive position might trigger a different type of religious experience. Thus, my sister can envision a situation in which Mitt is in the White House and the Mormon leaders suddenly have a revelation along the lines of “the President of the United States must (fill in the blank).” Would Mitt feel obligated to fall in line with that revelation, she asks? It’s an awfully good question, and one that I think Mitt has to be willing to answer before Americans can freely vote for him.

Having said that, I’d still take Mitt over the Democratic candidates. I just wouldn’t necessarily elevate him to the top of the heap for the Republican candidates.

UPDATE III: The Captain notes that Mitt is finally making some serious headway in the polls. This should be interesting.

55 Responses

  1. Good Thoughts!

    I like Mormons! In reality they are “more rational” than evangelical Christians. Mormons are NOT afraid of Science in the way that evangelicals are. The Mormons I know are bright, intelligent, Christians. Yes, despite what the evangelicals are saying, Mormons are Christians if you consider who is really living a Christ-centered life.

    Go get the book, “A Mormon in the White House?” by Hugh Hewitt.

  2. There’s an interesting double standard at work whenever anti-religious people talk about religion. When they want to talk about the bad stuff religion does, they’re perfectly happy to bring up burqas, clitoridectomies, jihad, terrorism, etc. — but only as something caused by “religion” in general. But when one actually starts comparing real-world religions, that sort of thing is suddenly out of bounds. You can talk about bad things that “religion” does, but not bad things that Islam does.

  3. I’m sorry Bookworm, but Joseph Smith was a documented charlatan, plain and simple. If something as important as your soul means so little to you that you are willing to follow a charlatan, then in my opinion you aren’t fit to be president. I know you are agnostic, and to you it might seem to be drawing an esoteric point, but for many Christian conservatives it isn’t.

  4. Nice post Bookworm. I found the above post both intelligent and witty. I think if these harsh anti-Mormon critics would just slow down & take a breath, they’d realize that the arguments they are using to debase Mormonism could also be used to debase all religion in general.

    Religion should promote values. These values should promote well-being and a happy society. How does it go? By their fruits ye shall know them? I don’t see much fruit coming from many of those harsh Mormon critics. I do see much fruit when looking at many Mormon families like the Romney’s.

  5. Hello Bookworm,

    I am sorry. I have to disagree with you here. I object to a dedicated Mormon sitting in the White House as much as a dedicated Muslim. The reason is very simple. Mormons believe, literally, that they are gods. The believe, literally, that God was once human just like us. I have real issue with a man who believes he’s god in the making.

    Furthermore, I do not think that all religious beliefs are created equal. Islam and Mormonism is not the same as Judaism and Christianity.

    Here is a taste of what they believe from their own mouths:

    http://mormonwiki.org/Beliefs

    Mormonism can be generalized as teaching that God lives on a planet near a star called Kolob, and is of the human species[1]. Man is a “god in embryo”. God the Father is a resurrected human being, who at one time proved his own worthiness as an un-exalted man and progressed unto godhood and exaltation. Human beings are co-eternal with God, began as individual “intelligences”, were begotten by our “Heavenly Father” and one of his wives as “spirit children”, and then were sent here to earth as part of a plan to give us physical bodies in which we could exercise free agency to prove our own worthiness unto godhood. As part of one’s worthiness, one must pass muster at temple worthiness interviews, participate in church activities, and keep all the commandments (which in Mormonism alternates between a variety of different meanings, ranging from “try hard” to “be perfect”). One of the chief appeals for succeeding in worthiness in Mormonism is the ability to be with one’s family forever.

    It is easy to see how they can be so family centered and have such high family values when they devout Mormons absolutely believe that they will be gods for their family ethic. I don’t know about you, but I truly do not want this to be the governing ethic behind the most powerful office in the world.

    Mitt has himself said that he is a devout Mormon. I’ll take his word for it.

  6. One last thing. I just don’t think values can be separated from the foundation of those values. I don’t think values happen in a vacuum. How many times have I heard people say, “Do it for the children!”? You can have family values until the day is long, but in the end, I don’t think it means squat.

    Family values by itself does not mean that a man will act out of integrity and character. You can love and devote you life to your family and commit terrible crimes. One does not follow the other. Muslims also have strong family values, and they serve up their children to terrorists and indoctrinate them to be suicide bombers…

  7. bookworm,

    What a welcome relief from the oceans of anti-Mormon rhetoric surrounding Romney’s campaign! As a Mormon, we just want to be American! Our people want to be nation builders and make this world, and in particular the nations we live in a better place. Whether one likes our beliefs or not should not have anything to do with how they judge our lives, our standards, or how one would lead the nation. We are good people just like everyone else, and since Joseph Smith, we have sought to remain as so even amid the depths of persecution.

    Whether one likes our belief in God and our belief that we can become like God should not affect the fact that our beliefs have made us better people. Believe in Him or not, learning about the Mormon belief in God will teach others that even though we strive to become like Him, He is a good person, and an excellent model to follow and it will not make us worse because of that belief. A belief that one can become like a Just, Merciful, and Loving (yes, we do believe He loves us!) God I don’t think is anything to be scared of (I’d almost be more worried about a belief in a “mysterious God”, although I don’t think it would affect my judgement on the individual). “By their fruits ye shall know them”…

  8. Here is the thing. Believe it or not, the more the Evangelical Christian community continues to treat Mormons not as just “strange,” but dangerous, the more likely they are to become Democrats. Now, Democrats do not hold particular values that most Mormons admire and that is why they remain Republicans.

    Give enough rhetoric and actual political moves against them, and I will promise you the Mormons will no longer be a Republican block you can take for granted. The movement is still very small, and I am not one of them, but there is already a start toward the Democrats. Considering the state of the Conservative movement at this time and Republicans might find themselves irrelavant (particularly the Christian variety). I really hate to say it, but a lot of Christians these days are sounding a lot more like radical Muslims than peace loving Americans. The only thing saving their hides from obscurity is the equally loud and hateful anti-religionists.

  9. Jetty,

    You said: I really hate to say it, but a lot of Christians these days are sounding a lot more like radical Muslims than peace loving Americans.

    Really? Can you point me toward the Christians who are demanding people to convert at the point of a sword? Can you point me toward the Christians who are throwing their children into indoctrination camps to wage “Crusades” against everyone who opposes their beliefs? Can you point me toward Christians who are saying that there will be no peace until Islam renounces their “Satanic” ways? Can you point me toward Christians who advocate overt lying to infidels in order to get the upper hand?

    Last year, people are suddenly making these insane comparisons between Christianity and Islam, that they are really the same thing. What can you say of such things?…

    My objection to Mormonism is different that my objection Islam, but ultimately, I’d rather not have someone professing belief in either religion to be in the White House.

  10. Wasn’t Bush the first Moron to be president? Hang in there Mitt.You might be the second !

  11. You all can reject Mormon theology, it certainly makes no sense to me, but if the choice is between Romney and Clinton in November 2008, how will you vote, or will you not vote? Given the choice between a theology you repudiate, and a governing philosophy you repudiate, what do you do?

  12. Zhombre,

    I hope to not find out.

  13. “Really? Can you point me toward the Christians who are demanding people to convert at the point of a sword? Can you point me toward the Christians who are throwing their children into indoctrination camps to wage “Crusades” against everyone who opposes their beliefs? Can you point me toward Christians who are saying that there will be no peace until Islam renounces their “Satanic” ways? Can you point me toward Christians who advocate overt lying to infidels in order to get the upper hand?”

    I would, but you would just say they were just trying to “tell it like it is” rather than hate mongering. After all, some agreed with Al Sharptons remark. Yet another said “A vote for [a Mormon] is a vote for Satan!” and few evangelicals blinked an eye. It is true that no one is killing Mormons, but must say I am not feeling the love.

  14. Jettboy,

    No, really, Jettboy. Produce the evidence. It’s a very serious accusation to say that Christians are saying things no different than radical Muslims.

    If you look at my statements above, you will find that I’ve only stated Mormon beliefs as stated by Mormons themselves. I also said that I would rather not have anyone professing this religion to sit in the White House because my objection to their theology, just as I object to the theology of Muslims, and Hare Krishnas, and Mooneys, and Hindus— many of whom here in the United States genuinely try to be good, peace-loving Americans.

    As to you accusation: Prove it. Name a substantial group of Christians who are professing the same things as radical Islamists.

    I do not doubt that you can find some fringe “Christian” group that wishes to destroy Mormonism or whatever other group they deem undesirable. I contend that fringe “Christian” groups are not the same thing as an entire civilization and religious orthodoxy claiming that it is the duty of every good Muslims to kill non-Muslims.

  15. One last stipulation. Please don’t misunderstand me here. There are Mormons out there that I greatly admire, Orson Scott Card being one of them. His insights into society and civilization is amazing. However, the key question that I am concerned with is whether or not I would like a devout Mormon to sit in the Oval Office.

    Personally, I wouldn’t like it because I feel uncomfortable with a President who believes he’s a god in the making. He’s going to be the man with his finger on THE BUTTON, that is, thousands hydrogen bombs. Now, this makes me uncomfortable.

  16. You want to see hate-mongering Christians? Go to General Conference in April or October.

  17. And by that I mean the waves of anti-mormons out and about. You can see the hate, not love in their eyes.

  18. With all due respect Nick, protest and holding picket signs outside the General Conference with hate “in their eyes” is not the same thing as calling on all good Christians to bomb the joint. From the pictures and videos I’ve seen of the protesters, they wouldn’t even fill the seats in a high school gymnasium. It’s distasteful, yes, but you can’t hardly claim that this is widespread “Christian” behavior.

  19. Bookie,
    You mean Romney is a Mormon!?! Why, I have never heard that – no one EVER mentions that….

    Seriously, I am with you on Mitt. I am an Evangelical, heck a Southern Baptist at that, and I would vote for him in an instant. I am not electing a Pastor, but a President. The Constitution doesn’t ask for a religious test (it actually prohibits it), and neither shall I.

    And to think that a man will let his religion get in the way of being President is just wrong – heck Nixon was a Quaker.

    You can deconstruct every religion the way people do with Mormonism. Heck, you should see me argue with my Southern Baptist Brothers when they try to tell me wine in theBible is just grape juice. Silly.

    BTW, when was the last time these people went after Senator Reid because he was…..a Mormon?

    XOXO

  20. Put aside the mormon issue. Voters should be looking not at what kind of church a candidate believes in, but what his or her vision for America is. For example, Mr. Romney has stated that he opposes closing down Guantanamo. He feels its population of citizens suffering from cruel, harsh conditions should be doubled. Never having done the work of war, Mr. Romney now supports the continued American oppression of the Iraqi people.
    On another issue, rather than foster the diversity that the founding fathers seemed to be aware of, he may impose his own ideals on the governed. I believe Romney would fill the positions of power around him with a microcosm of his professed value system.
    His presidential good looks,his ivy-league groomed style, his business acumen with its subsequent wealth, and family values is disconcerting. He is too polished. He wants the presidency so much that, to me, he comes across as phony to the core. I don’t think he’ll be able to relate to the general populace.

  21. Well, B.A. Baker hit it on the head. Mitt is just too good to be President. So let’s look for one of the others who really relates. Go ahead B.A. tell us which one has been rubbing shoulders with the general populace. Which one does not have a deep hunger to be President?

    I haven’t studied the history of the Mormon movement enough to separate fact from fiction–but I have read enough to know that there is is a hell of a lot of fiction. A. Conan Doyle even wrote a Sherlock Holmes story in which the leaders of the Mormon church were depicted as despicable villains. (That was certainly fiction).

    I have known a few Mormons quite well; worked and lived with them on close terms (aboard ship) and they were invariably good people. They did not try to convert me or anyone else. Apparently they do their Missionary stint, and then as far as I can tell it is “live and let live” thereafter. Often with the exception that they did not drink like regular Sailors you would never know they were Mormons.

    This Southern Baptist Backslider (that’s Baptist talk) likes Mitt.

  22. I live in an area where Mormonism is the predominant religion. I have also known a number of Mormons and served with them in the military. I’ve found them to be very family oriented, honest, and hardworking. As a group, I regard them as good people.

    I also think Joseph Smith was a fraud. I’ll keep the rest of my thoughts on Mormon theology to myself.

    Everyone has a belief system that influences their behavior. That belief system may tell someone to check the polls before deciding on a position, to study up on Machiavelli, or to conceal exactly what their belief system is.

    At least I know what an avowed Mormon stands for, although I’m not sure how good a Mormon Romney is. As for the rest, we will “know them by their fruits” but that may be too late.

  23. “Personally, I wouldn’t like it because I feel uncomfortable with a President who believes he’s a god in the making. He’s going to be the man with his finger on THE BUTTON, that is, thousands hydrogen bombs. Now, this makes me uncomfortable.”

    What exactly is the connection between Romney’s beliefs in the after life and the Bomb? You’re conflating two ideas without making any argument for it. And how is this any more scary than the sitting president declaring that God speaks to him? The idea doesn’t bother me (I trust God won’t tell him to go Dr. Strangelove), but it sure bothers a lot of other Americans.

  24. Throw me in with the pro-Mitt crowd.

    Thomas, do you think that your views are all that different from those that argued that the election of JFK would usher in an era of Papist hegemony in America?

    I am an Anglican Christian who worries about his own relationship to God and who especially tries to live (not alway successfully) by Jesus’ two most important commandments. I, too, believe that the founding of Mormonism is highly suspect and agree with Mark Twain’s assessment that the Book of Mormons reads like “chloroform in prose”. However, I, too, have worked and known many Mormons and found them to uphold stellar qualities in the form of work ethic, emphasis on education, focus on family, citizenship and social good works (the largest funder of the Boy Scouts, for example). Ye shall know them by their fruits. There is a lot that we can all learn from my Mormon friends about faith in action, even if I don’t agree with the dogmas of their faith.

    I guess that I am just not smart enough to decide who God will allow into his pearly gates and why. In the meantime, Mitt Romney way impresses me as presidential material.

  25. Of course if the choice is between Mitt Romney the Mormon vs. Hillary Clinton or John Edwards (two people whom I believe would declare themselves agnostic/atheists if not for their lust for political power) I’ll pull the lever for Romney. I will be a lot more reluctant about it than I should have to be when voting for a conservative candidate. Your Jews for Jesus analogy is a good one, but imagine how much more seriously you would take the issue if you were devout or orthodox practicing Jew rather than an agnostic. I’m thinking it would increase your skepticism tenfold. Personally, I’ve always loved the Jews for Jesus movement, mostly because I love any movement towards Jesus. I’m just concerned that Mormons don’t theologically feel the same way about Jesus that I do. I believe they worship Joseph Smith as a prophet and an idol, which the Torah teaches us is a cardinal sin.

  26. Dan,

    We probably believe very much the same way as you do about Jesus, what He did for us, that He died for us, and led the way for us. We worship God, and God only. Worshiping Joseph Smith as an idol would be a sin in our book as well. Christ leads and guides our church just as He did in the times of Peter, not Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was only an instrument in God’s hands to re-establish the Church of Christ. I strongly suggest you learn more about Mormonism – there seems to be a lot you don’t understand.

  27. Aquila,

    You said, “What exactly is the connection between Romney’s beliefs in the after life and the Bomb? You’re conflating two ideas without making any argument for it.”

    Here is the connection. When you believe you are god or a god in the making, you are taking on god-like prerogatives. You can forgive men their sins; you decide who gets to go to heaven and hell; who dies and who doesn’t… in a word, you are making an unlimited claim upon the world. You own it and can do whatever you like to it without any reproach or any check upon yourself whatsoever.

    Ultimately, this is the reason Jesus Christ was killed because he declared Himself God. In His doing so, you are left with three options. Either He was an absolute lunatic, or He was an absolutely evil man for deceiving untold numbers of people… or He is who is says He is…

    I didn’t explain further Aquila because I thought my statements were self-evident in meaning. But I guess not. In virtually every Western society (there are a few exceptions), for a man to declare himself god was the most extreme insanity. Even the materialist, secularists have a psychological term for it, “The God-Complex”.

    This is how this relates to “The Bomb”. If a person believes himself to be god, what won’t he do? I’m not talking about the afterlife here. Mormon theology states that they are embryo gods or gods in the making. Now, if we erect a man who professes full devotion and adherence to the belief of his own godhood to the most powerful position in the entire world, does that not make one pause, hesitate just a bit? One other prerogative of god is his wrath, to destroy and punish creatures who are in rebellion to his will. This is where, to me, the Mormon theology gets dicey should a devout adherent be raised to that high office.

    Now, I have met many good-natured Mormons and were friends with them in my time. We never discussed their religion and they had a fair strict, regimented code of ethics which I thought was admirable… and I have also run into Mormons in Utah that made my skin crawl.

    I find that many of the Mormons that I came in contact with and enjoyed were not devout Mormons. They still operated in and around the Mormon temple, but their faith was more akin to Christians showing up to church once a week on Sunday and then instantly forgetting what the sermon was about.

    Aquila, you also said, “And how is this any more scary than the sitting president declaring that God speaks to him?”

    Here why I think it’s more scary. Christianity believes that you will be judged for what you do before God’s Throne. This goes off the chart for a King or a President because he is responsible for the well-being of an entire nation. According to Christianity, God has placed the sword in the king’s hand to meet out justice and the King (in our case, the President) will answer to God if he does not act justly. If God finds him wanting, he will spend an eternity in damnation.

    However, a man who believes himself to be god has no restraints on his behavior at all. He IS GOD. He does not have to answer to anyone.

    I have no clue how much of this Mitt Romney believes. He has said he is very devout in his religion. One hopes that he doesn’t really believe this entirely, as many Mormons don’t, but that’s a very strange hope. We are hoping that the man who we’re going to elevate to the Presidency doesn’t mean what he says.

    Danny Lemieux,

    You said, “Thomas, do you think that your views are all that different from those that argued that the election of JFK would usher in an era of Papist hegemony in America?”

    Now, Danny, there is a world of difference between JFK’s and Mitt Romney’s faith. Their faiths are not the same. I don’t believe in ecumenicalism…

    I am not talking about the state of a man’s soul here. Only God can decide that. We are discussing Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith and how it relates to the Oval Office should he be elected. I, for one, do not feel comfortable with it.

  28. Thomas,

    You’re missing a very subtle distinction. Mormon theology centers around eternal progression, ultimately becoming heir to all that God has.

    That is a far cry from believing that I am God in this life. I do NOT take on God-like prerogatives, I do NOT forgive men their sins, I do NOT decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, I do NOT determine who lives and who dies. That is God’s realm, not my own. Mormons do not believe that they are gods, only that they (like all of God’s children) have the ultimate POTENTIAL of becoming like God.

    Romney does have a reproach and a check on himself – he is subject to God’s laws, and God requires obedience. Romney does not equate himself to God, and I’d be fascinated if you could substantiate your claims about the “God Complex” with regard to Romney or any other Mormon who has held office.

    For that matter, why not try to understand Romney’s beliefs a little better? Ask some of the Mormons you’ve associated with. I understand why some Utah Mormons might make your skin crawl – some Utah Mormons make MY skin crawl. Some of the Catholics I ran into at the Vatican made my skin crawl, but I don’t think that’s an objective way to make conclusions about Catholics. I’m not trying to convert you, I’m just trying to get you to understand where Romney is coming from. We fear what we don’t understand.

  29. I just wanted to drop into this debate, which obviously stirred some strong emotions, to thank all of you for the civility with which you’re conducting it. It makes me quite proud that my blog can serve as a forum where ideas are intelligently debated, without anyone lapsing into personal attacks or just fall back upon threats and imprecations. I very much appreciate and, indeed, am honored by the fact that you all consider my blog an appropriate forum for this true marketplace of ideas.

  30. Aquila,
    Perhaps you didn’t read what I wrote very carefully. I said, I didn’t know how much of Mormonism he believes. The full thing, or bits here and there. I don’t know.
    Yes, difference you are trying to make is only a difference in degree. A future god working to become god in his own right. According to the Mormon theology I’ve read, it is not saying that humans will be “like God”; it says that God was once human at one point. He became God through this progression you’re talking about. This is what Smith said himself:
    “It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did… Here, then, is eternal life: to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you-namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.”
    As to the forgiveness of sins and life and death, I was stating God’s prerogatives according to the Judeo-Christianity point of view. Maybe those prerogatives are different for Mormons.

  31. Thomas, can you cite me one example in Romney’s political or business career where he has shown any propensity to act like god? We do not elect Presidents to be theologians-in-chief, there is no religious test for office, and applying the “by their fruits ye shall know them” test I do not see signs of inherent depravity or malice in contemporary Mormons. Mormon religion may still have a few kooks practicing plural marriage but no religion is without its kooks. And again I ask if Romney manages to be the Republican nominee and is running against Clinton or Edwards or Obama or even Al Gore, what do you do? Dante envisioned a special niche in Hell for those who failed to act during times of crisis.

  32. Thomas, you are conflating the process with the outcome. Mormons no more believe they are gods, or can become such, in this life than other religious people believe they are in Heaven while alive. Besides, in Mormon theology the minute you have a “god-complex,” the minute your spiritually is more than likely corrupt. Faith, Hope, and Charity are the Pure Love of Christ; and no other ethical system is acceptable toward progression beyond the sinful natures.

  33. Does it really matter what the religion teaches, when it is the man that matters? The pull to temptation and the vision of bettering oneself is a decision Romney has to make, and that has little to nothing to do with his religion. A person’s decisions made in his life, is his decision. Not his religion’s. Romney after all, is not indoctrinating others or has himself been indoctrinated. His free will is still his to own or express.

  34. Zhombre,

    Again, I don’t know what Mitt Romney believes or what’s in his heart. And I don’t know his fruits since I don’t know the man. All we have is a carefully crafted public image, which, like any good politician, he plays very well. And I don’t know if Mitt has a propensity toward god-like behavior or not.

    My primary point is to delineate the Mormon beliefs and stating the fact that I am not comfortable with a man professing this faith in the White House.

    The statement I quoted in my last comment comes from Joseph Smith himself, “you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves”. I understand that “god in embryo” is not the same as god in fact.

    Now, this bothers me. I believe that your faith, if you are devout, is intimately intertwined with who you are. What you think and the decisions you make are made through the lense of your faith and character. Of course, many other factors come into this, but these two can be decisive factors.

    And Zhombre, I think it was unfair of you to frame your question with this addendum, “Dante envisioned a special niche in Hell for those who failed to act during times of crisis.” To force the question into an either/or between two unsavory options… well, there’s a third option, which by your addendum, you know very well. That is to sit out the election and not choose one. Should this be the choice, I would be very tempted to sit out the election.

    I believe through these conversations on various blogs and on my own, I think I am doing what I can to add to the conversation of our American civilization. But I don’t think I will be damned by refusing to choose between what I consider two bad options…

    The bottom line is, I don’t know what I’ll do. I’m sure more will be revealed over the course of this election. You can agree with me or disagree with me, but this is what I think on this subject.

  35. A fair enough answer. If I framed the question harshly, well, ascribe that to rhetorical excess. Sitting out the election is not an option for me. I believe in making choices.

  36. Zhombre,

    No problem, Z. I usually believe in making choices as well. I’ve voted in every election since I became of age, but should the choice be this scenario, this will be the first time in an election where I am tempted to register a protest vote…

  37. Then, Thomas, you should also take responsibility for the consequences of your inaction, whatever they may be. I see no problem with that, if that is what your conscience dictates.

  38. I intend to, Danny. But I hope it won’t come down to this scenario.

  39. I loved the first part of your post, Book. It was so very witty, I love it when you are like that. You aren’t being mean of course, but you also aren’t being conciliatory. So I like the balance, in a way.

    Yes, I just read your post, it seemed I had went straight to the comments without realizing I had skipped your main post.

  40. […] as translators.  (I’m also proud to boast, given the august company surrounding me, that my Mitt the Mormon post came in […]

  41. To Thomas and others who complain about the “God in the Making” bit.

    Have you really stopped to analyze it rationally? What are the attributes of a person who is working for this goal? Are these the attributes you want in a leader? Or would you rather he/she/it had the opposite values?

    You don’t have to agree, doctrinally, with Mr. Romney. That’s not the issue here. But you are using a religious argument to make a political decision. Outside of countries governed by Sharia and the like, that is not a wise move.

    However, a very compelling case can be made for his candidacy because of the way the MSM treats him. I figure that anyone who can get the NYT to use the vitriolic argumentum ad hominum against him the way Klein does can’t be all that bad.

  42. […] 3. “Mitt the Mormon” by Bookworm Room […]

  43. I’m with you, Book. I think Harry Reid is a nitwit. I like most of what I hear from Mitt Romney. Both are Mormons. One’s a lib and one’s a conservative. So what do I make of their faith? Not important. Anybody can rip on anyone else’s faith.

    In particular, I find it amazing that fundamentalist and evangelical Christians, who tend to believe that God literally created the earth in six days out of nothing, that Moses somehow managed to get two of every animal in the world on his ark (there are 400,000 different kinds of ants!), that the Bible is the absolute end-all-be-all and word-perfect in every respect, find it so difficult to even fairly consider the claims made by Mormon doctrine. Many of those same evangelicals and fundamentalists take it upon themselves to call Mormons non-Christians.

    Vote for Mitt Romney if you like his policies. Vote for someone else if you don’t. Shut up about his religion.

  44. Oops, make that Noah with the ark, not Moses!

  45. I see this argument ended some time ago, but reading through the posts, I can see that Thomas is set in his opinion that he thinks Mormons believe that they are Gods and that if a Mormon is president, he will act like he has the power of god to push the button and set off the bombs. Many posts since have, in my opinion, proven Thomas’ so-called knowledge about Mormons’ beliefs to be false, but he won’t let go of it. “I don’t know the guy, and I’m frankly not willing to get to know him. All I know is that he thinks he’s God because that’s what Mormons believe…no, I’m not listening…nope, I’m sure of it…” If Romney thought he was all-powerful, why didn’t he do some craziness as governor? If he was going to try to indoctrinate us all, why didn’t he do it at the Olympics or as governor? Craziness. Mormons are regular people who obey the law.

    Anyway, thanks for the great post, Bookworm and all those other open-minded commenters willing to look past religious beliefs different from your own and analyze a man’s values, policies, and propositions.

  46. […] that in mind, a couple of months ago I wrote a very commented upon post examining whether Romney’s Mormonism should get in the way of the W…. With few exceptions, even those least enthusiastic about his Mormonism were willing to concede […]

  47. […] speech. I think it’s a good speech and says at length what I’ve said more briefly in previous posts (and what others have said in millions of […]

  48. […] like the master — before the master did Posted on December 11, 2007 by Bookworm On May 23, 2007, I did a post in which I looked at Mitt’s Mormonism, and concluded that it shouldn’t matter because […]

  49. […] On May 23, 2007, I did a post in which I looked at Mitt’s Mormonism, and concluded that it shouldn’t matter because his values are what counts, not the path he took to arrive at those values. Based on comments left in response to that post, I updated it to explain that, as far as I could tell, Evangelical Christians viewed Mormons in much the same way as Jews view Jews for Jesus — a purported religion that’s neither fish nor fowl, and that’s carpet bagging on an already established name. Here it is, seven months later, and Dennis Prager is saying exactly what I said (only better, of course, because he’s Dennis Prager): Most traditional Christians regard Mormonism not merely as not Christian, but as a falsification of it. It does not matter to the vast majority of evangelicals if a candidate is a Christian. Most are quite prepared to vote for a non-Christian — a Jew, for example. And they are certainly prepared to vote for Christians with whom they differ theologically — whether non-evangelical Protestants or Roman Catholics. […]

  50. […] me and, especially, in the people who are tasked with guiding me. I’ve also noted that Mitt’s Mormonism isn’t a problem for me, and that it shouldn’t be a problem for people who are more religious than I am (something […]

  51. […] surround me and, especially, in the people who are tasked with guiding me. I’ve also noted that Mitt’s Mormonism isn’t a problem for me, and that it shouldn’t be a problem for people who are more religious than I am (something Dennis […]

  52. Your post is logical and focuses on the main point, that we’re not electing a religious leader, we’re electing a political, financial and international leader. Mitt seems like the most viable choice for a successful candidate, but I’m a mormon, so I suppose I might be biased? No so- a local leader of mine, Senator Gordon Smith, is also a mormon, and I think he is an enormous failure in the cause of my party. Harry Reid is also a mormon, and I don’t think I’d vote for him, given the chance… I agree with you, it all comes down to solid faith, good common sense and a belief in America.

  53. I agree with most stuff on this site cool keep up the good work!!!

  54. This post has some really wonderful insights and interpretations in it. Be sure to keep writing more great articles like this one.

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