Europe’s binary problem

Little Green Football’s Charles Johnson has been engaged in a very hostile to-and-fro with Fjordman, Gates of Vienna and Brussels Journal, all of which initially garnered a lot of support for being European blogs/bloggers (or Euro-Centric) that were aware of the Islamist threat to the West. Johnson’s concern is that these people/sites have ties that are way too close to neo-Nazi movements in Europe. Here’s Johnson’s most recent post on the subject, along with links to all his other posts.

I suspect that Johnson’s problem is that he’s running head first into a European problem, which is the binary nature of its politics. Europeans don’t really have moderate parties as we understand them, with everyone fighting around the margins of the middle. Instead, they have two defiantly opposed camps: The Left, which is socialism, and the un-Left which, no matter how sensible it can be on many subjects, sweeps in (voluntarily and involuntarily) all the aggressive race hatred that simmers under the European surface. I know that’s a gross generalization, and I’m not in a position time-wise to pick my way through various sources to back it up. It’s just a long-standing sense of I have from reading books about Europe and reading the European press directly. Because there aren’t viable third ways, the racists always go to the right.

In making this point, I keep thinking of British support (and, indeed, much German support) in the 1930s for the Nazis. What you discover if you look at it more closely is that many of these supporters were not pro-Nazi, they were anti-Communist. It didn’t occur to them that the Nazis were just as bad, if not worse; and it didn’t occur to them that there were other possible roads than the Nazi way to defeat Communism. They were completely binary. They could not conceive of being anti-Communist without being pro the opposite.

Anyway, that’s my take on the subject, which I freely admit is poorly expressed and relieved of the burden of actual facts.

UPDATEIn discussing the oldest hatred (antisemitism) and Europe’s new fear (Islamophobia), Uriya Shavit touches upon both Europe’s strong reactions to alien groups that it perceives as threats and the fact that, while Jews never gave rational reason to justify that fear, spokespeople for Islam are throwing fuel on the rising flames of European nationalism.  The article isn’t quite on point when it comes to my post, but it’s close enough to include here.

40 Responses

  1. You mean Europeans are not the masters of nuance that their diplomatic corps and various prime ministers would have us ‘mericans believe?

    Apparently when people with a binary outlook were going around scared of Reagan (and now GW Bush) for “acting like a cowboy,” it was a case of what Sigmund, Carl, and Alfred might call “projection.”

  2. My read is that Mr. Johnson is seeing bogeymen at every corner. I know someone who was purged from LGF for stating the obvious – that Europe has historically been white and Christian. Duh! But Mr. Johnson accused this poster of being a Nazi and censored him. The comment is quite relevant when discussing the assimilation of immigrants into a resident culture. In short, Johnson is not interested in discourse, only in his view of the world.

  3. It is a sad fact of European politics that the establishments’ controls on press and discourse (e.g., “hate” language prosecutions, controlled press, enforced political correctness) serve to squeeze out legitimate discourse and force people to the extremes, leaving no political alternatives in the middle.

    As a very thoughtful leader in the French establishment told me, Europe’s political realities tend to force dissent underground where it percolate and builds force and eventually explodes. He is resigned that the continued Islamicization of Europe will continue until there is a violent explosion.

  4. Bookworm, you have it exactly backwards. All the European governments use a parliamentary system, which encourages the development of multiple parties (as opposed to our own obviously binary two-party system). Every European polity has at least four parties in their parliament, and some have more. The parties span a broader range of opinion. Yes, they have some neo-Nazi parties — but those parties get a tiny fraction of the seats in parliament (if any) and are almost always denied admittance into the government. When the Austrian government formed a coalition including a semi-Nazi group, the rest of Europe was shocked and there was talk of diplomatic action against Austria. By the same token, there are also some very left-wing parties — and again, they get very few seats.

    Here, I just looked up the Economist article on the recent Polish election (you really should read the Economist!). Civic Platform, a moderate, pro-European party, garnered 209 seats. Law and Justice, a populist and nationalist party, got 166 seats. The Democratic Left Alliance, a center-left group, got 53 seats, while People’s Party, a centrist group, got 31 seats. Thus, what we see in Poland is the exact opposite of what you assert: the centrists dominate the parliament, and the extreme right and extreme left have no representation whatever. Contrast this with the United States, where less than 30% of the population supports the President. The polarization problem is here, not in Europe.

  5. Danny, where do you get the notion that Europe has a controlled press? Have you any evidence of “enforced political correctness”? I think that, like Bookworm, you have it exactly backwards. I see a much greater heterogeneity of news in the European press than in the American press.

  6. I haven’t forgotten Europe’s parliamentary system but, as you correct note, the fringe parties are just that — fringes. What’s interesting, though, is the ostensibly central parties which are also fringes. The Parliamentary process has done nothing to address the binary nature of Europeans. Also, from what I’ve read, many Europeans feel alienated from the political process, something never more clearly denigrated than with the EU Constitution debacle, when many populations (England and Holland spring to mind) resoundingly refused the political elites’ demands that they be led, sheep-like, into an EU that saps local jurisdiction over just about everything.

    As for Danny’s notion about the European press, I suggest you read Bruce Bawer’s “While Europe Slept,” written by a gay man who moved to Europe in the hopes of finding greater freedom than he had found in America. It’s a scathing indictment of the political class’s suppression of freedom of thought and speech, including profound press manipulation.

  7. Wait a minute! Aren’t you using circular reasoning? You assert that Europeans have a binary nature. You acknowledge that the parliamentary process fails to reflect any such binary nature — ergo the parliamentary system has failed. Where is the evidence that Europeans have this binary nature in the first place?

    Many Europeans feel alienated from the EU political process. You have only to read their papers, watch their demonstrations, and talk to them that many Europeans are highly engaged in their native political process. Check out this Wikipedia entry on voter turnout. It shows that the US voter turnout, at 54%, is lower than the voter turnouts in Austria, Belgium, Italy, Luxembourg, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Greece, the Czech Republic, Netherlands, Norway, Rumania, Bulgaria, Portugal, Finland, France, the UK, Ireland, Spain, Estonia, Hungary, and Russia. We did, however, manage to beat Poland. So, who’s more alienated from their governments: Europeans or Americans?

    I’m sorry that I don’t have the time to look over that book you mention. I would suggest an easier and more productive route: just look over the English language editions of some of the major European newspapers. I can dig some up if you’re interested, but I can assure you of several things. First, with the exception of the British pop press, the European press is much more serious in its stories than the American press. Second, it ignores a lot of the spectacular stuff Americans gobble up. Third, it has a much broader range of opinion. Hell, the French newspapers (few of which have English editions) by themselves cover much more territory than the American press (from what I have read of the occasional story translated into English and the summaries of editorial opinion of the major French papers._

  8. Sorry, Ophi – I have lived and still have quite a large family there. To use France as an example, a journalist must register and be licensed to practice. In exchange, he/she gets a lot of benefits, including tax benefits. If they cross the line, they lose their license and their benefits. In France, media really isn’t separate from Government, as it is here. It is no accident that editorial policy commentary in French papers sings from the same hymnal. This is not the case in Great Britain, however.

    With respect to the parliamentary system, I would argue your points but they are moot. At present, about 80% of the legislation passed by European parliaments is mandated by unelected members of the EU. Once the “constitution” is passed (as it will, through fiat), the national parliaments will be even more irrelevant.

    Voting in Europe has been high, of late, because so much has been at stake. Most voters that I have spoken with know that they are losing their democracy, their national identity, their history and their freedom.

  9. C’mon, Danny, you’re telling me that Le Figaro, Le Monde, and Liberation all parrot the same line?!?!? Give me a break! Look at the top stories in today’s editions. My French totally sucks, but even I can figure out the basic thrust of the headlines. Le Monde (center-left) and Liberation (left) have on their front pages photos of the brave transport workers in solidarity against the government. Le Figaro has nothing like that. It leads with a story on Claude Chirac (!) and relegates the strike that is immobilizing France to the fourth or fifth story, I think. Even then, its stories are about SNCF advising travellers to take alternate routes. The only relevant photo shows an empty train station. These people are all telling the same story? Don’t kid me!

    As to the parliamentary votes, you’re talking about the EU government. I made it quite clear that I wasn’t talking about that, I was talking about the national governments. Voter turnouts for EU parliamentary elections have been steadily declining.

  10. I was referring to foreign policy, Ophi. With regard to internal politics, they are free to parrot their respective party lines. However, they cannot stray much beyond that. The government(s) have ways of rapidly closing down dissent (even in Britain) through legal pressure. An EU official recently complained to me that it isn’t even possible to openly discuss certain issues in the EU that are hot topics in the U.S. anymore (e.g., death penalty, abortion).

    Moreover, in some countries (e.g. Belgium), you are only allowed to be a political party if pre-approved by the government.

  11. […] [Discuss this article with Bookworm over at Bookworm Room…] Share Article Little Green Football, Charles Johnson, Islamist, neo-Nazi, Europe    Sphere: Related Content Trackback URL […]

  12. All the European governments use a parliamentary system

    Even President Sarko’s government?

    but those parties get a tiny fraction of the seats in parliament (if any) and are almost always denied admittance into the government.

    What Op means by “admittance into the government” is the ability of parliaments to forge coalitions that then result in a 50%+ majority. A majority that is necessary for one party to claim the Prime Minister slot.

    Thus a moderate party, like one which Book might favor, could get the plurality of votes but it would not win anything if the socialist party aligns with the Green party to form more than 50% of the total votes counted.

    It is purely population based, which is an extreme economic drain on prosperous Canadian provinces. Given that they are not really represented to the extent that they could be, under a US system. Their votes are devalued by the more popularous provinces which simply feed on the wealth from the resource rich and economically prosperous provinces.

    The ability of Parliaments to forge Grand Coalitions, which is what Merkel did in Germany, allows extremist parties to obtain executive administration slots.

    They are more than just a fringe, Book.

    One of the reasons why the Weimer government got into trouble was because this requirement of Parliamentary systems created immense opportunities for chaos once the Nazi party acquired enough seats in Parliament. Not enough to form a majority, but certainly enough to be part of a coalition or to prevent the good Prime Ministers from maintaining power without compromises.

    The Nazis may have gained power through being voted in, but it was the system which allowed it in the first place.

    Thus, what we see in Poland is the exact opposite of what you assert:

    Poland hasn’t been integrated into Europe yet. They don’t suffer the decadence that more stable European nations suffer under due to American military protection.

    C’mon, Danny, you’re telling me that Le Figaro, Le Monde, and Liberation all parrot the same line?!?!?

    Talk about over generalization. Just because institutions have the same system by which it controls people, doesn’t mean that there will be no differentiation between the behaviors of those organizations. Quite a logicic fallacy being used here.

    Danny,

    Europe suffers from the same problem it always has. A landed aristocracy that uses their power to maintain the status quo, while crushing any opposition. The name of the aristocracy has just changed, not the system itself.

  13. Most newspapers I keep track of in Norway, Sweden, and Finland generally reflect their readership. For example, many of the headlines recently in Norway have been about the storms in the North Sea and oil production by StatOil. Now as to political parties “conservatives” in all three countries have seen growing support. Most of these parties are saying something must be done about the immigration issues their countries face.

    Is some of it racist? Of course, but there is also a genuine frustration that many people are feeling. One example, in a trip to Oslo I was strolling with some friends. There were a number of beggars out, mostly middle eastern immigrants, I was told. This upsets many Norwegians. They take great pride in their socialised state, and beggars imply to them that it’s not working. Their chief issue is that the new immigrants are not assimilating into Norwegian culture and the social compact they have.

    This statement by a friend summed it up. “They’re not even trying to learn Norwegian.”

  14. To bolster Allen’s comment, please read this.

    WHAT seems to us almost a miracle as we look back upon it is nothing else than the reward for infinite and unwearying labor…. And now for that labor we have received from Providence our reward, just as the Germany of 1918 received its reward. At that time Germany shared in those blessings which we think of under the collective idea Democracy. But Germany has learned that democracy in practice is a different thing from democracy in theory.

    If today at times in foreign countries Parliamentarians or politicians venture to maintain that Germany has not kept her treaties, then we can give as our answer to these men: the greatest breach of a treaty that ever was practiced on the German people. Every promise which had been made to Germany in the Fourteen Points – those promises on the faith of which Germany had laid down her arms – was afterwards broken. In 1932 Germany was faced with final collapse. The German Reich and people both seemed lost. And then came the German resurrection. It began with a change of faith. While all the German parties before us believed in forces and ideals which lay outside of the German Reich and outside of our people, we National Socialists have resolutely championed belief in our own people, starting from that watchword of eternal validity: God helps only those who are prepared and determined to help themselves. In the place of all those international factors – Democracy, the Conscience of Peoples, the Conscience of the World, the League of Nations, and the like – we have set a single factor – our own people. . . .

    We were all convinced that a true community of the people is not produced overnight – it is not attained through theories or programs – but that through many decades, yes, and perhaps always and for all time the individual must be trained for this community. This work of education we have carried through ever since the Party was founded and especially since we came into power. But nothing is perfect in this world and no success can be felt to be finally satisfying. And so, even today, we have no wish to maintain that our achievement is already the realization of our ideal. We have an ideal which floats before our minds and in accordance with that ideal we educate Germans, generation after generation. So National Socialism will continually be transformed from a profession of political faith to a real education of the people….

    You can actually guess at whom it came from.

    Hitler was far more than the weird looking dude speaking a furrin language on history shows.

    He used public dissatisfaction and the need to address legitimate injustices for his own purposes. The fact that illegal immigration is a legitimate injustice perpetrated by the Leftist aristocracy against the great majority of common citizens, only means that there is more fuel to fire fascism.

    Oh, did I say fascism. I meant National Socialism. One must be accurate after all.

    Read the rest, if you dare

  15. The splitting up of the nation into groups with irreconcilable views, systematically brought about by the false doctrines of Marxism, means the destruction of the basis of a possible communal life…. It is only the creation of a real national community, rising above the interests and differences of rank and class, that can permanently remove the source of nourishment of these aberrations of the human mind. The establishment of such a solidarity of views in the German body corporate is all the more important, for it is only thereby that the possibility is provided of maintaining friendly relations with foreign Powers without regard to the tendencies or general principles by which they are dominated, for the elimination of communism in Germany is a purely domestic German affair.

    -Hitler 1933

    As you can see. They start with the “international cooperation” line and then go to something else eventually.

  16. Danny, it occurred to me that we don’t have to argue about the relative state of press freedom — somebody else has been measuring it for years. I refer to “Reporters Without Frontiers”, an international organization that measures press freedom around the world. You can find their rankings here

    A quick summary of their findings:

    The top 14 countries are ALL European (if you count Iceland as European).
    The USA comes in 48th, behind such countries as Germany, France, Nicaraugua, Namibia, and Ghana.
    The US had better numbers in previous years, numbers that put it on a par with Germany and France. However, the ranking has plummeted in the last two years.

  17. Oh, and Allen, I agree that Europeans are growing increasingly concerned about Islamic immigrants. The turning point, I think, was the murder of the anti-immigrant Netherlands politician a few years back. The Netherlanders are some of the most open-minded and tolerant people in the world, and they live in a society remarkably devoid of street crime. But it has been on the rise lately and now they are struggling with a soul-wrenching problem: do we compromise our world-famous tolerance? How can we do it in a humane manner? The problem is especially contentious in the Scandinavian countries because they are all homogeneous and tolerant.

    I agree that the Europeans will be cutting back drastically on immigration. My European friends all seem convinced that the problem is real, and seek to find a humane solution.

  18. Well, Ophi, you are someone who likes objective data. Look into the Journalists Sans Frontiers rankings more closely with regard to how they define press freedom and determine how they developed their scale. Let us know what you find. It should be obvious to you (hint: “per capita”).

  19. Ophi,

    That appears to be the rub. My friends seem to be asking “why won’t they join us?” I think it would behoove us to start that conversation about our own problem. I’m not sure what the answer is but we have to be compassionate and humane.

  20. Whoops, sorry. “Reporters sans Frontieres”. My bad.

  21. Danny, I don’t know what you’re talking about, because your veiled references are too cryptic to decode. If you have a point to make, make it.

  22. I keep forgetting to respond to you, Allen, in the same response I write to Danny. Yes, the conundrum for Europeans, as I understand it, is that they feel they have a duty to provide asylum for refugees, but the refugees have never integrated into their societies. This perplexes the Europeans because they have been quite successful in the past integrating European refugees into their societies (refugees from Communist countries during the Cold War, for example). But the insularity of the Islamic immigrants has proven much stronger than anybody expected, and now the Europeans find their cities fragmented. I think that the controversy will turn on the language issue. Will they require immigrants to demonstrate language proficiency under some terms? I suspect that this is where we will see the battle fought, with each country coming up with its own compromise.

  23. I believe the language question will be contentious. In Norway they are still arguing about “Norwegian” it has several variants. Similarly in Finland, Sweden, and Norway a portion of the population uses variations of Sami. In Finland some aspects of government must be done in Sami. So the very idea of enforced language standards is kind of touchy. I am also reminded of Belgium’s issues on languages.

    It is another thing they are very sensitive to, since portions of their own populations primarily speak other languages, and jealously guard it.

  24. Simple thought 1. Which side hates America most. 2. Which side hates Jews a great bit. 3. Who has political power.

    Number three is all you need to know after the first two answers. The left hates.

  25. Mr. dot-dot-dot, your thinking is definitely simple. Too simple. You think that Europeans divide themselves based on sympathy to America? They have other interests that are more important to them. Your suggestions of anti-semitism are absurd. And the mix of political power in Europe is very complicated.

    Hence, simple approaches to these issues don’t yield any useful insights.

  26. OK, let me spell it out, Ophi. I know of the study to which you refer, although your link doesn’t work. Take all their data and recast them per-capita. You might be surprise to see where the countries rank.

    Another criticism of the study is that conflates journalists killed by governments with journalists killed by criminals (such as that poor journalist killed in Oakland, recently). Also, read what I said – journalists in Europe are a protected class, just as long as they don’t cross certain lines. If they cross those lines, they are no longer journalists (hence, statistics). For an example, look at the case of Paul Belien at The Brussels Journal and how the government dealt with him.

    Finally, your willingness to take information at face value is kinda cute. The issue with Islamic immigrants in Europe has nothing to do with welcoming refugees. It has everything to do with a) cheap labor for societies in demographic decline and b) obedient votes for the people (Socialists) that provide them with welfare benefits.

    Sad but true, the U.S. does much of the same with our illegals – cheap labor and cheap (albeit illegal) votes. However, our illegal immigrants (unlike those in Europe) are not trying to destroy our values and society in the name of their religion – big difference! We’re just lucky, I guess.

  27. I’ll give a brief summary of the German system. There werre previously 3 parties:: the Social Democrats; the sister parties Christian Democrats and Christian Socialists (Bavaria) , which are center right; and the Free Democrats, which are more libertarian, served as king makers , and traditionally named the foreign minister. When the Greens got into parliament, there were theoretically more options for coalition building, but in practice the Greens had little in common with the center right. With reunification, the revived communist party (now known as The Left) entered parliament and gradually began winning votes from the left wing of the Social Democrats. After a stint in parliament, the Greens now have a realo wing that has governing experience and the utopian party base.

    So the situation is now that 2 parties risk losing members to The Left if they compromise on pet projects of their left wings. Everyone is trying to figure out how far they can go because having The Left in government would be a disaster.

    One final point on this topic: the Christian Democrats and Christian Socialists have always operated on the basis of alllowing no party on its right flank, so they included and toned down those who might have drifted into radicality. Today’s neo-Nazi revival consists largely of people from the east who feel like the losers of reunification (who offer all sorts of programs for young people), and young people from all over who are likewise losers but may be geographically on the front line of the ethnic clashes with various immigrant groups. In some of the cities you find gangs of Turks, Kurds, Arabs, and Russians, as well as neo-Nazis.

    Ophi,

    You can’t completely rely on the English versions of newspapers. The content is not always identical. Furthermore only the highest quality papers do English translations. It is true that you can get some good news coverage in the quality papers, but don’t assume this info is informing public opinion. You need to see what makes it into the local papers and which themes are picked up by the TV talk rounds. It is also interesting to read letters to the editor to see which topics resonate. Also, don’t forget the Feuilletons of the papers and the cultural TV shows. They have tremendous influence on public opinion and yet don’t do fact checking. Think of Frank Rich as the humble version of Europe’s cultural elite. I won’t go into the bias in book translations. And do read Bruce Bawer and Josef Joffe.

  28. Book, with all due respect,I think that it is time to ban those who forget to take their medication from your discussion group.

  29. Well, I did delete all of JT’s posts when I discovered them, because they were horribly racist. I’ll keep deleting them if he comes back.

  30. Danny, are all of the factors that go into the calculations appropriate for per-capita treatment? I was under the impression that some of them are not. Besides, if it were so obviously biased, wouldn’t you expect to see all the big countries — China, Russia, the USA, India, at the bottom of the list? They aren’t. The bottom position is held by Eritrea, a country with low population. Myanmar is lower than China, even though it has, what, less than a tenth of China’s population. You’re just plain wrong here.

    Another criticism of the study is that conflates journalists killed by governments with journalists killed by criminals

    That’s a limitation intrinsic to the problem. Many journalists in Russia, for example, are not killed by the government, but a lot of them seem to die anyway. Perhaps they could refine their numbers by taking out a factor for the local crime rate. Even that is problematic.

    Finally, your willingness to take information at face value is kinda cute

    And you prefer to take it only after you’ve put your spin on it?

    The issue with Islamic immigrants in Europe has nothing to do with welcoming refugees.

    Oh really? Do you believe that, when some Third World person shows up at the Passport check at the EU border, they just wave them through saying, “Gee, you look like cheap labor. Welcome!” Of course not! They have to go through the whole asylum process. Sheesh, for somebody who’s lived in Europe, I thought you would have noticed.

    It has everything to do with a) cheap labor for societies in demographic decline

    You’re about 40 years behind the times. Yes, the GastArbeiter program brought lots of Turks into Germany, but that is no longer a consideration. Didn’t you ever hear about the Polish plumbers while you were in Europe?

    and b) obedient votes for the people (Socialists) that provide them with welfare benefits.

    You’re obviously unaware of the fact that immigrants are not given voting rights or citizenship upon entry.

  31. expat, thanks for the update on German politics. I follow it from a distance but the intricacies of the relationships among the parties often escapes me. And yes, I agree that the English-language versions of the papers are never quite the same as the native language. They’re useful as indicators, but not much more. I think their greatest value is in giving Americans a broader view of the world. And I know absolutely nothing of what goes on on their TV. I don’t even watch American TV!

  32. Ophi says,
    “they live in a society remarkably devoid of street crime. But it has been on the rise lately and now they are struggling with a soul-wrenching problem: do we compromise our world-famous tolerance? How can we do it in a humane manner? The problem is especially contentious in the Scandinavian countries because they are all homogeneous and tolerant.”

    Ophi, back this up. I think you cannot.

    Note how vague Ophi’s statements all are. This is a sudden explosion of crime that is simply “on the rise”. And for some reason this vague INEXPLICABLE rise has caused them to “struggle with tolerance”. And the Scandinavian countries are expressed as TOTALLY “homogenous and tolerant”.

    Well, crap. If they’re homogenous, then what the hell are they tolerant of? Tolerant of someone preferring buns over bread?

    What is happening in various Scandinavian communities, and elsewhere, is an explosion of violence by Muslims against non-Muslims. If you believe the statistics, there is a tipping point at which the violence accelerates as soon as the community presence of Muslims reaches a certain point. I believe the number expressed was about 30%.

    Is it racist to highlight the sudden incredible increase of rapes in those countries by Muslim men against non-Muslim women, including various statements indicating that they are whores and infidels and unworthy of better treatment, especially do the way they dress and cavort and parade?

    Charles Johnson is onto something with the manner in which racist groups are exploiting this for their own ends. But cannot there be a problem with racist Muslims as well as racist Eurocentrics? Charles has been highlighting the Muslim violence for at least a year; his focus on the bigoted hatred and monstrous racism of the Eurocentrists is relatively new. The vigorousness of their bigotry is relative new too, as people respond to the other, earlier evil. Hurrah for Charles Johnson, fighting against both! And shame on Europe!

    Don’t focus on the Eurocentric bigots to ignore the Islamorapists. Else you will become a supporter of Palestine against Israel. Scrutinize them both, please.

  33. I find I have to caveat my angry statements yet again.

    The problem is not with Muslims themselves – of course! These problems are always cultural. And within Europe, those we call Islamofascists control the culture in all – or nearly all – Muslim communities.

    I’ve heard it said that if you organize 5% of your population, you can succeed with a revolution. In other words, in criminal endeavors and any other lawless activity, it doesn’t take that many people to force a community into anarchy or despair or anything else. A small COMMITTED minority can wreak havoc.

    And that is what is happening, I believe, in Europe, in communities beset with Islamic violence, and the (inevitable) Eurocentric backlash that is unfortunately becoming deeply racist itself. As many have predicted.

  34. Ophi, back this up. I think you cannot.

    Well, you’re wrong. Look here. These statistics are a little old, and they miss the Netherlands in a number of key places, but here’s a relevant number:

    Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people)
    USA: 24.4
    Netherlands: 1.2

    I found a bunch of other tidbits, and I’ll acknowledge that there’s plenty of petty crime in the Netherlands — but violent crime is definitely much lower there than here.

    Next, I’ll take you to task for telling falsehoods. You wrote:

    And the Scandinavian countries are expressed as TOTALLY “homogenous and tolerant”.

    What I actually wrote was:

    The problem is especially contentious in the Scandinavian countries because they are all homogeneous and tolerant.

    Since you complain that my statements are all vague, I’ll offer you something that’s not vague: you’re a liar.

    What is happening in various Scandinavian communities, and elsewhere, is an explosion of violence by Muslims against non-Muslims.

    Now I’m turning the tables on you: Back up that statement with statistics. I agree that there has been an increase. Produce statistics showing that it is an explosion of violence by Muslims against non-Muslims.

    You refer to the “sudden incredible increase of rapes”. Again, back up that claim with numbers. I know that there have been some sensational cases, and that there has been an increase in rapes. But I challenge you to produce statistics showing that it is a “sudden incredible increase”.

    You refer to “Islamoracists”. I suppose they’re the Islamic version of Amerirapists, Armyrapists, Marinerapists, Christorapists, Republiracists, and so forth? If you want to play slander games with words, you can’t object when the same mud is slung right back at you. I suggest that you desist from such ugliness.

    Else you will become a supporter of Palestine against Israel.

    Wow! Is that ever a non-sequitur!

  35. “And you prefer to take it only after you’ve put your spin on it?”

    No, Ophi…first I consider the source, then I stand back and try to determine if the information makes sense, then I dig to see how it was derived. I never take NGOs at face value – having worked for (directed) a not-for-profit, I no longer have any illusions about how they work, nor about the term “not-for-profit”. Having lived extensively in Europe, I smelled a rat when I saw the study and proceeded accordingly. Much better than accepting everything with the stamp of the UN or “NGO” at face value, don’t you think?

    With regard to “per-capita” analysis, it stands to reason that larger countries will have more journalists than smaller countries and therefore more recorded “incidents”. Many of the parameters in the study do lend themselves to per-capita evaluation. However, your point is also correct – some don’t: North Korea’s lack of a free press has nothing to do with its size. Just one more reason why the data in this study are so bogus.

    Incidentally, you are correct – the murder rate in (Western) Europe is considerably lower than in the U.S. However, when you factor out the inner city, high-crime areas in the U.S., our murder rates are generally equal or lower than in Europe. In addition, many “honor killings” in Europe’s (highly dangerous and largely autonomous) Muslim zones go unreported.

    However, if you look at “crime of violence”, it is very different. Britain, for one, has a far higher rate of violent crime and burglary than we do. In addition, many crimes (like rape and most burglaries) aren’t reported any more – either by police overwhelmed with paper work or citizens who know that it doesn’t do any good. If you want data on Scandinavia, I suggest that you Google “Fjordman”, “Malmo” and “rape”.

    Finally, your little quip about “Amerirapists” or “Christorapists” would be totally accurate if there was movement by a significant group of people in this world to rape in the name of America or Christ. But that isn’t happening. It is happening in the world of Islam, however, and the silence of most Muslims has been deafening.

    Also, most of us on this blog recognize a veiled slur when we see it.

  36. If you have a point to make, make it.-Op to Danny

    Danny is just trying to avoid heavily prodding your buttons, Op. If Danny makes too strong a point, you will go off on him.

    Finally, your willingness to take information at face value is kinda cute.

    Only if it supports his views of course. Although any “international organization” would be high on Op’s list of sources to use. But that really doesn’t matter, because he only came across those sources to justify his already held beliefs. In a way, Op has already deduced the fundamental beliefs of socialism and Leftism to the point where he doesn’t need sources except to convince others.

    Deductive logic naturally ignores superfluous and extemporaneous data, whether new or old. What matters is if the premise is correct. If the premise is correct, then everything else follows from such. While Op’s assumptions and premises are definitely NOT correct, certainly he believes they are correct.

    However, our illegal immigrants (unlike those in Europe) are not trying to destroy our values and society in the name of their religion-Danny

    They just aren’t organized yet. Violence comes through well organized institutions, after all. The Islamic JIhad provides the organization for Europe’s downfall. Look at the Muslim Brotherhood in Britain, via Melanie Phillips.

    I’ve heard it said that if you organize 5% of your population, you can succeed with a revolution.-Mike

    Culture is a very useful method for organizing large groups of men and women. Culture has myths and standards, propagated through peer groups, that can get people to kill and die that would otherwise not in the case of wealth and Western values.

    The Western value of “narcissism” and “Hollywood acting” is at its base, a very anti-social phenomenon. Organization requires social controls and vectors, not anti-social ones. The violence they create, is only done through social networks, Mike, even though such violence might be seen by Westerners as “anti-social”. This is because a lot of Westerners think of social cooperation and society as a thing for peace and prosperity. The Muslim society is designed for war and conquest, which is that society’s method of alleviating inner stress, guilt, and shame. The Muslim society can only preserve itself by trying to annihilate Jews, Americans, and infidels. The Western society tries to preserve itself by getting rid of war and any other threatening signs of instability and nastiness.

    “Social”, in this term, has no negative or positive implications, at least not inherently. This is completely opposite to what the Left believes, which is that social cooperation is the solution to mankind’s ills.

    A small COMMITTED minority can wreak havoc.

    An army, after all, is never outnumbered by a disorderly mob.

    Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people)
    USA: 24.4
    Netherlands: 1.2
    -Op

    One observation I think is important here is that often Op uses statistics to attack the US. Or rather, tries to exploit a statistic implying an American weakness in order to bolster his point about foreign lands and situations. This type of analysis is typically not accurate, given that it originated from Soviet propaganda apparatuses designed originally to weaken American claims and bolster Soviet ones.

    Statistics and scientific study are not very useful tools for forming opinions on human society and behavior. This is due to the fact that it uses inductive logic, aka informal logic, to calculate the conclusions. Thus it is extremely vulnerable to misinformation, disinformation, propaganda attempts, psychological warfare consequences, and various other unintentional consequences produced in warfare and chaos. Science functions on order, chaos, revolutions, and wars function on chaos. Those two are typically inconsistent with the other, at least when one tries to use science to analyze war or war to analyze science.

    Much better than accepting everything with the stamp of the UN or “NGO” at face value, don’t you think?

    better than the nastiness of war, Danny? I think not.

    With regard to “per-capita” analysis, it stands to reason that larger countries will have more journalists than smaller countries and therefore more recorded “incidents”.-Danny

    It is simply a factor of urban and human behavioral models. Higher concentrations of populations produce a non-linear progression in crime. A community of 100 that knows each other may have one murder every ten years. A community of 100,000 (3 orders of magnitude greater) would have perhaps 10,000+ murders every ten years (4 orders of magnitude greater) instead of 1000 murders every ten years. If you use linear progression, it should be 1,000 per 10 years, because the population increased just as much. Geographic differences such as Los Angeles vs Rudy’s New York can also produce gross distortions in the statistics when compared against the entire Netherlands.

    This is simply the result of high urban populations concentrated in cities. The United States has many cities and many towns, which in aggregate, produce more crime than the Netherlands. Leftists, Democrats, and various other EU partisans prefer the population based “per 100,000” as if numbers could adequately describe human behavior. This is why the Left does not truly understand human nature, Danny, nor what their policies will do to human beings.

    However, when you factor out the inner city, high-crime areas in the U.S., our murder rates are generally equal or lower than in Europe. In addition, many “honor killings” in Europe’s (highly dangerous and largely autonomous) Muslim zones go unreported.-Danny

    Concerning this point, I would just like to support your point by reminding people of Iraq. Iraq’s murder rate is up, supposedly, from Saddam’s days. Yet Saddam’s days were protypically less free. When societies are inundated with crime, like the Netherlands, most of the crime is far less than in contested regions and most of it is also unreported, as you noted Danny. Crime can either be low because the criminals are already in control and thus most of their actions have become semi-legitimized, or crime can be low because there just isn’t any criminals or criminal organizations around to create crime.

    Crime itself is not fatal to a society. Organized crime is very very dangerous, however, because it uses society’s own mechanisms to propagate itself. Just like AIDS and other viruses. And just like socialism, Danny.

  37. Since you complain that my statements are all vague, I’ll offer you something that’s not vague: you’re a liar.

    Look, whoever Op was hammering on, you can’t challenge Op’s statements. You can’t even question the logic or how it is constructed. You are the student, Op is the instructor. You get out of line and you’ll be on the ignore list, ya’ll hear?

  38. Goodness, you and I do make a great tag-team, YM.

  39. Danny writes,

    first I consider the source, then I stand back and try to determine if the information makes sense, then I dig to see how it was derived.

    Yes, I endorse that approach. But I see no reasons to believe that the data is biased or skewed. Nor does it make my nose twitch as out of synch with other indirect information (such as the willingness Netherlanders show to walk the streets late at night). And if I do suspect the data, I look for other data that might be superior. Do you have any such data?

    With regard to “per-capita” analysis, it stands to reason that larger countries will have more journalists than smaller countries and therefore more recorded “incidents”.

    Yes, this is obvious. But do you know whether they use a flat count or a per-capita rate to calculate their index? I couldn’t find their methodology, so I had to fall back on Occam’s Razor. Are these people so stupid that they wouldn’t take into account larger populations? That seems less likely than the assumption that they’re smart enough to notice what both of us noticed. And the fact that there’s no clear bias in the results (no obvious tendency for tiny countries to be at the top of the list nor big countries to be at the bottom of the list) strongly suggests that in fact they too noticed the obvious and compensated for it.

    However, your point is also correct – some don’t: North Korea’s lack of a free press has nothing to do with its size. Just one more reason why the data in this study are so bogus.

    Um, North Korea is second to last in their ranking. This renders your statement a non-sequitur. North Korea provides one example of the obvious correctness of these results.

    Incidentally, you are correct – the murder rate in (Western) Europe is considerably lower than in the U.S. However, when you factor out the inner city, high-crime areas in the U.S., our murder rates are generally equal or lower than in Europe.

    First, I’d like to see that data. Second, if you want the comparison to be fair, then you must also factor out the inner city areas of the Netherlands as well — which makes up much of the Netherlands, one of most highly urbanized countries in the world.

    Britain, for one, has a far higher rate of violent crime and burglary than we do.

    Yes, Britain has exceptionally high crime rates. But I have been defending my original claim that:

    The Netherlanders are some of the most open-minded and tolerant people in the world, and they live in a society remarkably devoid of street crime.

    Finally, your little quip about “Amerirapists” or “Christorapists” would be totally accurate if there was movement by a significant group of people in this world to rape in the name of America or Christ. But that isn’t happening. It is happening in the world of Islam, however, and the silence of most Muslims has been deafening.

    Are you asserting that Muslims are raping in the name of Allah? I’d sure like to see some evidence for that. I do appreciate your providing some evidence on the magnitude of the problem. Here’s a good quote:

    While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo’s population.

    Coupled with information showing that rape in Oslo has increased significantly, this definitely makes a good case. There is, however, one catch: there’s a strong correlation between poverty and crime and we know that immigrant communities have higher incidences of crime. To properly evaluate this, we need data on other, non-Muslim immigrant communities that sprang up suddenly. Any ideas? Post-Mariel Miami?

    Also, most of us on this blog recognize a veiled slur when we see it.

    Yep, it sure is insulting when that kind of slur (“Islamorapist”) is turned around, isn’t it?

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