first I consider the source, then I stand back and try to determine if the information makes sense, then I dig to see how it was derived.

Yes, I endorse that approach. But I see no reasons to believe that the data is biased or skewed. Nor does it make my nose twitch as out of synch with other indirect information (such as the willingness Netherlanders show to walk the streets late at night). And if I do suspect the data, I look for other data that might be superior. Do you have any such data?

With regard to “per-capita” analysis, it stands to reason that larger countries will have more journalists than smaller countries and therefore more recorded “incidents”.

Yes, this is obvious. But do you know whether they use a flat count or a per-capita rate to calculate their index? I couldn’t find their methodology, so I had to fall back on Occam’s Razor. Are these people so stupid that they wouldn’t take into account larger populations? That seems less likely than the assumption that they’re smart enough to notice what both of us noticed. And the fact that there’s no clear bias in the results (no obvious tendency for tiny countries to be at the top of the list nor big countries to be at the bottom of the list) strongly suggests that in fact they too noticed the obvious and compensated for it.

However, your point is also correct – some don’t: North Korea’s lack of a free press has nothing to do with its size. Just one more reason why the data in this study are so bogus.

Um, North Korea is second to last in their ranking. This renders your statement a non-sequitur. North Korea provides one example of the obvious correctness of these results.

Incidentally, you are correct – the murder rate in (Western) Europe is considerably lower than in the U.S. However, when you factor out the inner city, high-crime areas in the U.S., our murder rates are generally equal or lower than in Europe.

First, I’d like to see that data. Second, if you want the comparison to be fair, then you must also factor out the inner city areas of the Netherlands as well — which makes up much of the Netherlands, one of most highly urbanized countries in the world.

Britain, for one, has a far higher rate of violent crime and burglary than we do.

Yes, Britain has exceptionally high crime rates. But I have been defending my original claim that:

The Netherlanders are some of the most open-minded and tolerant people in the world, and they live in a society remarkably devoid of street crime.

Finally, your little quip about “Amerirapists” or “Christorapists” would be totally accurate if there was movement by a significant group of people in this world to rape in the name of America or Christ. But that isn’t happening. It is happening in the world of Islam, however, and the silence of most Muslims has been deafening.

Are you asserting that Muslims are raping in the name of Allah? I’d sure like to see some evidence for that. I do appreciate your providing some evidence on the magnitude of the problem. Here’s a good quote:

While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo’s population.

Coupled with information showing that rape in Oslo has increased significantly, this definitely makes a good case. There is, however, one catch: there’s a strong correlation between poverty and crime and we know that immigrant communities have higher incidences of crime. To properly evaluate this, we need data on other, non-Muslim immigrant communities that sprang up suddenly. Any ideas? Post-Mariel Miami?

Also, most of us on this blog recognize a veiled slur when we see it.

Yep, it sure is insulting when that kind of slur (“Islamorapist”) is turned around, isn’t it?

Look, whoever Op was hammering on, you can’t challenge Op’s statements. You can’t even question the logic or how it is constructed. You are the student, Op is the instructor. You get out of line and you’ll be on the ignore list, ya’ll hear?

Danny is just trying to avoid heavily prodding your buttons, Op. If Danny makes too strong a point, you will go off on him.

Finally, your willingness to take information at face value is kinda cute.

Only if it supports his views of course. Although any “international organization” would be high on Op’s list of sources to use. But that really doesn’t matter, because he only came across those sources to justify his already held beliefs. In a way, Op has already deduced the fundamental beliefs of socialism and Leftism to the point where he doesn’t need sources except to convince others.

Deductive logic naturally ignores superfluous and extemporaneous data, whether new or old. What matters is if the premise is correct. If the premise is correct, then everything else follows from such. While Op’s assumptions and premises are definitely NOT correct, certainly he believes they are correct.

However, our illegal immigrants (unlike those in Europe) are not trying to destroy our values and society in the name of their religion-Danny

They just aren’t organized yet. Violence comes through well organized institutions, after all. The Islamic JIhad provides the organization for Europe’s downfall. Look at the Muslim Brotherhood in Britain, via Melanie Phillips.

I’ve heard it said that if you organize 5% of your population, you can succeed with a revolution.-Mike

Culture is a very useful method for organizing large groups of men and women. Culture has myths and standards, propagated through peer groups, that can get people to kill and die that would otherwise not in the case of wealth and Western values.

The Western value of “narcissism” and “Hollywood acting” is at its base, a very anti-social phenomenon. Organization requires social controls and vectors, not anti-social ones. The violence they create, is only done through social networks, Mike, even though such violence might be seen by Westerners as “anti-social”. This is because a lot of Westerners think of social cooperation and society as a thing for peace and prosperity. The Muslim society is designed for war and conquest, which is that society’s method of alleviating inner stress, guilt, and shame. The Muslim society can only preserve itself by trying to annihilate Jews, Americans, and infidels. The Western society tries to preserve itself by getting rid of war and any other threatening signs of instability and nastiness.

“Social”, in this term, has no negative or positive implications, at least not inherently. This is completely opposite to what the Left believes, which is that social cooperation is the solution to mankind’s ills.

A small COMMITTED minority can wreak havoc.

An army, after all, is never outnumbered by a disorderly mob.

Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people)
USA: 24.4
Netherlands: 1.2-Op

One observation I think is important here is that often Op uses statistics to attack the US. Or rather, tries to exploit a statistic implying an American weakness in order to bolster his point about foreign lands and situations. This type of analysis is typically not accurate, given that it originated from Soviet propaganda apparatuses designed originally to weaken American claims and bolster Soviet ones.

Statistics and scientific study are not very useful tools for forming opinions on human society and behavior. This is due to the fact that it uses inductive logic, aka informal logic, to calculate the conclusions. Thus it is extremely vulnerable to misinformation, disinformation, propaganda attempts, psychological warfare consequences, and various other unintentional consequences produced in warfare and chaos. Science functions on order, chaos, revolutions, and wars function on chaos. Those two are typically inconsistent with the other, at least when one tries to use science to analyze war or war to analyze science.

Much better than accepting everything with the stamp of the UN or “NGO” at face value, don’t you think?

better than the nastiness of war, Danny? I think not.

With regard to “per-capita” analysis, it stands to reason that larger countries will have more journalists than smaller countries and therefore more recorded “incidents”.-Danny

It is simply a factor of urban and human behavioral models. Higher concentrations of populations produce a non-linear progression in crime. A community of 100 that knows each other may have one murder every ten years. A community of 100,000 (3 orders of magnitude greater) would have perhaps 10,000+ murders every ten years (4 orders of magnitude greater) instead of 1000 murders every ten years. If you use linear progression, it should be 1,000 per 10 years, because the population increased just as much. Geographic differences such as Los Angeles vs Rudy’s New York can also produce gross distortions in the statistics when compared against the entire Netherlands.

This is simply the result of high urban populations concentrated in cities. The United States has many cities and many towns, which in aggregate, produce more crime than the Netherlands. Leftists, Democrats, and various other EU partisans prefer the population based “per 100,000″ as if numbers could adequately describe human behavior. This is why the Left does not truly understand human nature, Danny, nor what their policies will do to human beings.

However, when you factor out the inner city, high-crime areas in the U.S., our murder rates are generally equal or lower than in Europe. In addition, many “honor killings” in Europe’s (highly dangerous and largely autonomous) Muslim zones go unreported.-Danny

Concerning this point, I would just like to support your point by reminding people of Iraq. Iraq’s murder rate is up, supposedly, from Saddam’s days. Yet Saddam’s days were protypically less free. When societies are inundated with crime, like the Netherlands, most of the crime is far less than in contested regions and most of it is also unreported, as you noted Danny. Crime can either be low because the criminals are already in control and thus most of their actions have become semi-legitimized, or crime can be low because there just isn’t any criminals or criminal organizations around to create crime.

Crime itself is not fatal to a society. Organized crime is very very dangerous, however, because it uses society’s own mechanisms to propagate itself. Just like AIDS and other viruses. And just like socialism, Danny.

No, Ophi…first I consider the source, then I stand back and try to determine if the information makes sense, then I dig to see how it was derived. I never take NGOs at face value – having worked for (directed) a not-for-profit, I no longer have any illusions about how they work, nor about the term “not-for-profit”. Having lived extensively in Europe, I smelled a rat when I saw the study and proceeded accordingly. Much better than accepting everything with the stamp of the UN or “NGO” at face value, don’t you think?

With regard to “per-capita” analysis, it stands to reason that larger countries will have more journalists than smaller countries and therefore more recorded “incidents”. Many of the parameters in the study do lend themselves to per-capita evaluation. However, your point is also correct – some don’t: North Korea’s lack of a free press has nothing to do with its size. Just one more reason why the data in this study are so bogus.

Incidentally, you are correct – the murder rate in (Western) Europe is considerably lower than in the U.S. However, when you factor out the inner city, high-crime areas in the U.S., our murder rates are generally equal or lower than in Europe. In addition, many “honor killings” in Europe’s (highly dangerous and largely autonomous) Muslim zones go unreported.

However, if you look at “crime of violence”, it is very different. Britain, for one, has a far higher rate of violent crime and burglary than we do. In addition, many crimes (like rape and most burglaries) aren’t reported any more – either by police overwhelmed with paper work or citizens who know that it doesn’t do any good. If you want data on Scandinavia, I suggest that you Google “Fjordman”, “Malmo” and “rape”.

Finally, your little quip about “Amerirapists” or “Christorapists” would be totally accurate if there was movement by a significant group of people in this world to rape in the name of America or Christ. But that isn’t happening. It is happening in the world of Islam, however, and the silence of most Muslims has been deafening.

Also, most of us on this blog recognize a veiled slur when we see it.

Well, you’re wrong. Look here. These statistics are a little old, and they miss the Netherlands in a number of key places, but here’s a relevant number:

Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people)
USA: 24.4
Netherlands: 1.2

I found a bunch of other tidbits, and I’ll acknowledge that there’s plenty of petty crime in the Netherlands — but violent crime is definitely much lower there than here.

Next, I’ll take you to task for telling falsehoods. You wrote:

And the Scandinavian countries are expressed as TOTALLY “homogenous and tolerant”.

What I actually wrote was:

The problem is especially contentious in the Scandinavian countries because they are all homogeneous and tolerant.

Since you complain that my statements are all vague, I’ll offer you something that’s not vague: you’re a liar.

What is happening in various Scandinavian communities, and elsewhere, is an explosion of violence by Muslims against non-Muslims.

Now I’m turning the tables on you: Back up that statement with statistics. I agree that there has been an increase. Produce statistics showing that it is an explosion of violence by Muslims against non-Muslims.

You refer to the “sudden incredible increase of rapes”. Again, back up that claim with numbers. I know that there have been some sensational cases, and that there has been an increase in rapes. But I challenge you to produce statistics showing that it is a “sudden incredible increase”.

You refer to “Islamoracists”. I suppose they’re the Islamic version of Amerirapists, Armyrapists, Marinerapists, Christorapists, Republiracists, and so forth? If you want to play slander games with words, you can’t object when the same mud is slung right back at you. I suggest that you desist from such ugliness.

Else you will become a supporter of Palestine against Israel.

Wow! Is that ever a non-sequitur!

The problem is not with Muslims themselves – of course! These problems are always cultural. And within Europe, those we call Islamofascists control the culture in all – or nearly all – Muslim communities.

I’ve heard it said that if you organize 5% of your population, you can succeed with a revolution. In other words, in criminal endeavors and any other lawless activity, it doesn’t take that many people to force a community into anarchy or despair or anything else. A small COMMITTED minority can wreak havoc.

And that is what is happening, I believe, in Europe, in communities beset with Islamic violence, and the (inevitable) Eurocentric backlash that is unfortunately becoming deeply racist itself. As many have predicted.

Ophi, back this up. I think you cannot.

Note how vague Ophi’s statements all are. This is a sudden explosion of crime that is simply “on the rise”. And for some reason this vague INEXPLICABLE rise has caused them to “struggle with tolerance”. And the Scandinavian countries are expressed as TOTALLY “homogenous and tolerant”.

Well, crap. If they’re homogenous, then what the hell are they tolerant of? Tolerant of someone preferring buns over bread?

What is happening in various Scandinavian communities, and elsewhere, is an explosion of violence by Muslims against non-Muslims. If you believe the statistics, there is a tipping point at which the violence accelerates as soon as the community presence of Muslims reaches a certain point. I believe the number expressed was about 30%.

Is it racist to highlight the sudden incredible increase of rapes in those countries by Muslim men against non-Muslim women, including various statements indicating that they are whores and infidels and unworthy of better treatment, especially do the way they dress and cavort and parade?

Charles Johnson is onto something with the manner in which racist groups are exploiting this for their own ends. But cannot there be a problem with racist Muslims as well as racist Eurocentrics? Charles has been highlighting the Muslim violence for at least a year; his focus on the bigoted hatred and monstrous racism of the Eurocentrists is relatively new. The vigorousness of their bigotry is relative new too, as people respond to the other, earlier evil. Hurrah for Charles Johnson, fighting against both! And shame on Europe!

Don’t focus on the Eurocentric bigots to ignore the Islamorapists. Else you will become a supporter of Palestine against Israel. Scrutinize them both, please.

Another criticism of the study is that conflates journalists killed by governments with journalists killed by criminals

That’s a limitation intrinsic to the problem. Many journalists in Russia, for example, are not killed by the government, but a lot of them seem to die anyway. Perhaps they could refine their numbers by taking out a factor for the local crime rate. Even that is problematic.

Finally, your willingness to take information at face value is kinda cute

And you prefer to take it only after you’ve put your spin on it?

The issue with Islamic immigrants in Europe has nothing to do with welcoming refugees.

Oh really? Do you believe that, when some Third World person shows up at the Passport check at the EU border, they just wave them through saying, “Gee, you look like cheap labor. Welcome!” Of course not! They have to go through the whole asylum process. Sheesh, for somebody who’s lived in Europe, I thought you would have noticed.

It has everything to do with a) cheap labor for societies in demographic decline

You’re about 40 years behind the times. Yes, the GastArbeiter program brought lots of Turks into Germany, but that is no longer a consideration. Didn’t you ever hear about the Polish plumbers while you were in Europe?

and b) obedient votes for the people (Socialists) that provide them with welfare benefits.

You’re obviously unaware of the fact that immigrants are not given voting rights or citizenship upon entry.