One of the first news stories I heard after a nut case started shooting up Virginia Tech announced that counselors would be standing by at a San Francisco Bay Area college, to help those who were so tramatized by the event they needed psychiatric help to cope with it all.
What kind of mental and emotional weaklings do we think we are raising?
I suppose this is the inevitable outcome of accepted child-rearing practices of the last 20 years. We should concentrate on building little Jimmy’s “self-esteem” rather than teaching Jimmy to do something he might rightly be proud of. We should discourage anything that might reveal children as winners or losers. We should discourage competition in all its forms, even refrain from keeping score at our kids’ ball games. Any child who shows the slightest energy or enthusiasm is immediately labeled with ADD or ADHD and drugged.
No wonder our kids grow up needing psychiatrists. Any kid of even minimal intelligence must see through this nonsense. Unearned self-esteem is less than nothing. A kid who has never lost has also never won. 100% of kids are not in the top 50% of anything, but, if given the chance to compete, nearly every child can find the areas in which he or she does excel. Denied that chance, many children may never truly succeed in anything.
I suppose every generation worries about how the next generation will do when its time comes to take over. But we are conducting a grand social experiment here, and one that it seems to me is guaranteed to fail. I hope our children can overcome their upbringing because that upbringing certainly doesn’t prepare them for the real world, a point we tacitly acknowledge when we call in the counselors whenever the harshness of the real world shows itself.
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Suck it up.
Very interesting Bookworm. I have concluded that I am out of step with current attitudes. So, it is reassuring to see you express the views you did.
My wife and I have had some discussions since the VT episode. My take was thank heavens our Marines and Soldiers don’t fall apart when their units have a terrible day. She responds, “but they are marines”; as though they come from a different world. They don’t, they just meet different expectations.
Firemen, police and Medical people didn’t stop after 9/11; or after any other disaster. Different expectations.
During my tenure, at least, the tradition in Naval Aviation was that a unit would carry out the day’s flight schedule even after suffering a fatal accident. Inculcating a particular mindset in anticipation of tougher times.
Some areas of society believe a softer and weaker mindset will serve us better.
It’s Don btw, not Book.
One of the best ways to ensure depression is to fail to encourage excellence in performance. If an individual has no accomplishment, or difficult challenge successfully overcome, to point to, his ability to have internal strength is diminished. Allowing a little kid to “do it myself” encourages that innate drive for accomplishment. Encouraging the kid to strive for excellence reinforces that accomplishment and enhances his inner strength. Just telling someone they’re a good person simply because they exist and take up space does nothing but waste oxygen.
I believe this is the tenth anniversary of the flooding of Grand Forks, ND. The main part of town had to be evacuated. As I recall, three psychiatrists came in to provide counseling. They left after a week because no one wanted or needed their services. Everyone was too busy rebuilding their town. The people up there all face adversity at times, and overcome it, and they help their neighbors as well.
The kids at VT who are coming through their horror the best are the ones continuing their studies, moving forward. As an example, the students on the school newspaper insisted to continue to publish, and as a result are getting worldwide acclaim.
Al
To the vaulted conservative way of thinking, the need for mental health support is a sign of weakness and failure, which is what the shooter’s parents thought, also.
On the contrary, Greg, conservatives believe that mental health support is very important for those who need it. Conservatives, though, prefer to raise kids who don’t need it to begin with.
Don’t weasel, Don. Your post derides mental health support in the face of trauma, an attitude the shooter’s parents shared. The cultivation of healthy families means supporting them when they need help, which, unfortunately for the Cho family and others in their situation, remains a challenging concept for the conservative mind to grasp, as demonstrated by Don’s post and comment.
Sorry DQ.
You are off-base Greg. This particular conservative fervently wishes that effective mental health intervention
had been employed, perhaps even imposed, to prevent the massacre at VT.
On the other hand, I do not believe that the News Media help by encouraging people to wallow in this or any other tragedy. Nor do I believe it helpful for the professional hand-wringers to do their work on our children. I realize that the world is more closely connected, but I do not believe that it is healthy for individuals to “take-on” the effects of every tragedy in a personal way. Even a healthy psyche could not withstand the constant buffeting. Finally, in my opinion either side of the equation; i.e. individuals professing to take upon themselves pain which is not theirs, and others projecting the pain over an artificially large population, cheapens the suffering experienced by real victims. Grieve for them. Yes, pray for their comfort, then let them heal.
There was a time when families reassured children if bad things happened. Grandmothers and mothers comforted; fathers and grandfathers were a bulwark against threats. I believe that the very best therapy for children who are faced with confusing and troubling situations is the love, comfort and strength of their families.
So what bothers some Consevatives is the intrusive substitution of the Professional Nanny, in its various forms, for the rightful functions of the real thing.
Try reading my comment again, Greg — “No wonder our kids grow up needing psychiatrists.” I didn’t say the counselors weren’t needed; they probably were. I’m criticizing the “progressive” child-rearing practices that so screw up our kids that they need the counselors.
Greg, it is amazing how often you go out of your way to criticize what you wish we said instead of accurately reading what we did say. I suppose by your logic from a few posts ago you now owe me an apology for misrepresenting what I said, but I’m not holding my breath.
remains a challenging concept for the conservative mind to grasp
Indeed, the conservative mind is such a harsh place of public executions and ostracism.
Al, there were 3 CDR Sala posts and 1 Dr Sanity post that I think would be great background material for what you were describing.
I don’t have the links now, but I will when I get home.
http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2007/04/what-penn-and-teller-said.html
I highly recommend that people watch that video, which is Penn’s take on the gun massacres.
We see in research studies of people from fringe or outcast social groups (such as gangs), that the members of such groups often behave respectfully and honestly toward others within their own group, but treat outsiders as if they were not human, without any sense of wrongdoing.
The ringleaders of such groups are often the the true psychopaths, and these leaders have a seemingly unlimited supply of morally weak or immature individuals (many of them very young)–who embrace antisocial behavior under group pressure.
We also know that in time of war, or social ferment, many formerly respectable, or at least “contained” non-aggressive persons (young men, especially) turn to thuggery–their morality extending only so far as expediency and conformity to the mob or gangster group of which they have become a part. Some will remain antisocial even after the crisis/riot/war passes; the majority revert to outward respectability.
Having already a predisposition because of parenting issues, the culture of Islam “stacks the deck” further by first encouraging the subjugation of women by men and giving it a religious blessing. This is nothing new in the history of the world, and it certainly occurred throughout the history of Christianity too. But the idea that women are inferior to men has been challenged for a thousand years, and as women have taken their equal place with men in the countries promoting women’s rights, there has been an incredible improvement in those countries’ economic and political standings.
The culturally sanctioned misogyny of Islam results in a dysfunctional family unit that has tremendous impact on both male and female personality development.
The Koran says (Sureh 4, Verse 35) that men have authority over women (not just the wife but sisters, daughters, and all females). If they disobey, “first admonish them, then refuse to sleep with them, and then beat them”. In Islamic countries, women are second-class citizens. They are counted as one-half a witness in a legal proceeding; and they can inherit only one-half as much as a man. Their sexuality is considered so inflammatory, they must be hidden under clothing that prevents anyone from seeing them. In Saudi Arabia, sons may be sent to foreign universities but daughters are not even allowed to drive.
Why are women’s rights issues–or rather, the lack of them– of importance in developing antisocial psychopathology? In the case of Islam, the religion itself has set the stage for an ongoing potentially abusive situation in the family; in heterosexual relationships; and in the culture.
The subservient role of women in the religion and their status as lesser beings breeds sadism in the male, simply because it is so easy (and sanctioned) to take out your frustrations or impotence on the “inferior” half of the population. This practice is not dissimilar to why people will take out their anger and negative emotions on pets or children. Being allowed to do so teaches an important psychological lesson that all budding psychopaths learn: “I am more important and powerful because I can hurt or kill this weak person”. It is often a matter of honor to have absolute control over the identified weak person; and a matter of shame if they disobey you (see here). A male’s status as a man can only be maintained by having power over the women.
When you weaken people, you allow evil into the hearts of men and women. This is not good for humanity. In essence, this seems like a simplistic state. That if you let in evil, good things won’t happen. But just read the bolded portion I quoted. Is it as simple as that? yes and no. It is complex in how evil weaves a tapestry of lies and subjugation and corruption. It is simple to recognize, for evil has a definite footprint on the human psyche and soul.
Whoops, I forgot the link.
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2007/04/youve-got-to-be-carefully-taught.html
She has a lot more to say, so click click.
Weaseling seems to be your gift, Don. If you’ll re-read your original post, you’ll see how you explicitly link mental health support with a recipient’s diminished capacity. Then — without benefit of data or evidence — you project a cause-and-effect relationship onto that diminished capacity. Which then leads you to assert that the availability of mental health support is symptomatic of parental/societal failure:
“…a point we tacitly acknowledge when we call in the counselors whenever the harshness of the real world shows itself.”
You stigmatize mental health in order to advance your own political canard.
Given the enormity of the Va Tech tragedy, which appears related to a kid’s longstanding mental health problems, which remained untreated to avoid societal stigma, tell me again how much you (1) value mental health support, and (2) sincerely want to nurture better families and kids.
Hi Greg,
I knew better than to expect an apology. You can continue to distort my post all you want. It is what it is, your distortions notwithstanding. The one valid point you made is that I didn’t cite to any hard data. But do we really need hard data about the growing number of kids who are being diagnosed with ADD or ADHD? Or the large number being drugged? Or the growing assault on competition from the Left? Or the growing number of counselors who show up at the slightest sign of a tension inducing event?
Attorneys “weasel” for a living and I am pretty good at it. But I never need to weasel when discussing things with you, Greg. The unadorned truth is enough to defeat your mindless insults every time.
ymarsakar,
Sorry, I can’t get into all of your links. I have not read what you intend. The apparent “family values” of the muslim terrorists are essentially self destructing. In one sense, the Islamic terrorist behavior is like the Mayan behavior of decapitating the most successful, ie the captain of the team which won the game, and sending him to his reward, to their god. As history relates, not a very long lived society. The problem with the Muslim terrorists, of course, is that there must be other puppetiers pulling the strings for their own benefit on the world stage.
Greg, I think the ground under your feet is becoming more unstable.
Al
Indeed you are a weasel. That you embrace it is what I rail against.
One poster here has been harshly critical of Quixote for denigrating mental health support. I decided I’d better go back and read Quixote’s original post carefully. After all, if the critic is so continuously vehement in his criticism, he must have a point, right?
Having reread it carefully, it is clear to me that the criticisms are unfounded. Don was very careful and clear in bemoaning the need for WIDESPREAD counseling whenever something terrible happened somewhere in our country or in the rest of the world. Those who lost loved ones to this monster, and those who were there at his rampage and managed to survive it - they very likely are good candidates for counseling. But the rest of us, all of us, who learned of the massacre only after it had happened, and do not know any of the victims… what need have we of mental health support and counseling? To need it without the direct experience of trauma indicates a very troubling phenomenon of widespread fragility. Fragility not in the face of trauma but in the face of HEARING about other people’s trauma.
Certainly you could expect some people - especially children - who have suffered trauma in the past to reexperience that trauma as a result of this shooting or of the deaths. They should know that there is someone available for counseling. But of COURSE someone is always available for counseling. What we have here is a broad counseling effort aimed at the entire population of the school district, implying a need to counsel an entire at-risk population.
The need for such a massive intervention, for people who have no direct connection to the traumatic events, is what Don is criticizing, and I agree wholeheartedly with him.
ROFL! Greg, just between you and me (since I doubt anyone else is reading this thread by now), if you want to be taken seriously (and if you insist on distorting the other perosn’s arguments rather than arguing honestly) you are going to have to learn to be much more subtle than you have been. Your distortions here (and in your other posts so far) wouldn’t be taken seriously by anyone over the age of 10.
For the record, I am not a weasel, I don’t embrace it and your charge is silly. But I am an attorney and I spend most of my working life advocating for my clients. As all attorneys do, I sometimes have very weak legal and factual positions. I make of them what I can. I do so honestly (just ask Bookworm) but I do stress the positive and de-emphasize the negative in a way that you would consider “weaseling.” And I’m very good at spotting weaseling, and downright dishonesty, in my opponents’ arguments. That does not make me a weasel; it does make me a pretty good attorney.
Anyway, any time you want to practice your debating skills, have at it. You might try representing your opponents’ arguments honestly and meeting them honestly, instead of leading with distortions and insults, though. You’ll never be taken seriously the way you “argue” now.
Thanks, Mike. You make some excellent points.
On this forum, Don? with you? Life’s too short to bother. And your propensity to weasel is too internalized.