I fulminated about that damned scarf Faye Turney was wearing during her time in Iran (although, interestingly, feminist groups such as NOW seemed unperturbed, just as they seem unperturbed by Pelosi’s Hermes shenanigans during her disgraceful trip to Syria). I could have, but didn’t, comment on the fact that all of the kidnapped sailors behaved disgracefully, under the traditional standards that used to govern seized armed forced, by doing and saying anything their handlers demanded. As I noted with Turney, I hadn’t walked in her shoes, and I didn’t know the pressures she might have been under. The same goes for the other sailors involved in this debacle. I wasn’t the only one, nowever, who noticed this bizarre behavior from military personnel:
But despite widespread relief at their release, the group may face questions as to their behaviour in captivity.
Colonel Bob Stewart, who became famous as a hard-hitting commander of British peacekeepers during the Bosnian war, said today that he had been “disquieted” by the captives’ TV appearances.
“In the old way we didn’t used to say much when were taken as a captive – name, rank number, date of birth,” Colonel Stewart told BBC Radio 4’s Today programe. “I know things have changed and I know they were not prisoners of war, but I’m a little disquieted about it.”
While the Colonel is absolutely right, the Captain has a very good point about the sailor’s conduct, and it goes to the very moment of their capture:
It would be churlish, though, to spend much time criticizing the detainees when the focus should be on those who allowed their capture in the beginning. Despite its proximity, the Cornwall did nothing to intercede on behalf of its crew when threatened by a hostile force. That demonstrates a lack of loyalty from the top down on that ship, which certainly excuses any from the bottom up. Those who conduct military patrols have every right to expect that their leadership will act to protect them against hostile forces, and British command failed to do so.
An organization’s ethos starts at the top. Lousy management almost invariably equals lousy conduct, and that goes for the military as well as for any place else. (Something that once again increases my respect for the Marines, an organization with an ethos of deep respect for military values and the for the men and women serving this country and observing those values.)
I honestly do not know what to say about this episode.
While I am relieved that no one was killed, I have a very sick feeling in my stomach. Does anyone honestly believe that this won’t happen again?
This morning I was listening to NPR (I know, I know!) and heard one of the mothers of the sailors express her gratitude in the most fawing, gushing way possible to Ahmedinejad for his “gift.”
I couldn’t help it – the only image that popped in my head was that of a serf from the Middle Ages on her knees thanking her “master” for not hurting her for her not having performing some task properly.
So, this time, he held 15 soldiers hostage. Is it that hard for folks to imagine him holding a city hostage some time in the future? But, of course, there would be no support for us doing anything preemptive in that department because now so many people think Ahmedinejad is good, well-meaning kind of guy!
Ugh.
I refer it to “Beaten Woman Syndrome”, after seeing an interview with a badly beaten woman who recanted her story in a courtroom, saying she had deserved to be beaten because she hadn’t “loved” her abuser enough. It was one of the most sad, pathetic sights that I had ever witnessed. Understand that, whereas we are “Citizens of the United States”, the British are “Subjects of the Crown”. It is a poignant and telling demarcation between our respective senses of ourselves that goes very, very deep, apparently. To Mark Steyn’s point, America truly is very much alone, I am afraid.
There is beginning to be a certain amount of so-far somewhat low-key rumbling about their conduct, both in England and here. In my neck of the woods, there has been rather more severe, shall we say, outright disgust, with the behavior of the cousins, expressed by kids wearing various uniforms. I see about a hundred uniform-wearing kids a day. (Within 75 miles of where I live, also live 3 aircraft carriers, their attendant battle groups, and 24 submarines, at three large naval bases. Plus two naval air wings, a large Army base, an Air Force base, the Naval magazine, and more Coast Guard than you can shake a stick at. [Serious Coast Guard. High-endurance cutters, basically destroyers painted white. They do spend time with the Navy in the Middle East.] Lots and lots and lots of uniformed kids around, many of whom have been there and back and there again on more than one occasion.) They are singularly unimpressed with the British performance, starting with the marines in the boats who let themselves be taken prisoner with zero resistance, right through the behavior of HMS Cornwall, which could have – and should have, in the eyes of US sailors – ended the situation in something under five seconds.
They are also in absolutely no doubt about what did end the situation: the arrival of two CVNs and their battle groups off the coast of Iran, and the expected arrival of a third – Nimitz – some time today.
Our military kids are mostly fine with George W. Bush’s world-wide image as something of a “cowboy” in the White House. It doesn’t bother them at all that people like Ahmadinejad’s bosses worry about what he might do – in fact they see that as a good thing.
The British, before they became European, used to be pretty hard guys. They remain the best of a bad crop, but have moved a lot closer to the “frog-eating surrender monkey” side of the ledger than they have to ours.
Which is something else we have to wake up to, and realize: other than possibly Australia, we don’t have any allies. And the sad fact is we never did. The reason to make an alliance with someone is in order to make yourself stronger, and increase your capabilities: the two of you together can accomplish more than either one could alone. But – is that our situation with any – every – country in Europe? Clearly, it is not. Militarily, (hell, even economically) there isn’t any good reason for us to be “allied” with any of them, they bring nothing to the table. We in fact do not have, and never have had, military allies in Europe. What we have had since 1945 is a bunch of foreign dependencies, who can do nothing without our participation, and without our participation amounting to 95% of whatever effort is being mounted.
Their chief contribution to the idea of being our “allies” has been real estate: we have bases in England, Germany, Spain and Italy. When it gets down to it, however, they aren’t much help. The British always show up, true, but they show up with two guys for every thousand we bring. That’s not an “ally,” that’s an extra pain in our butts, because now we have to watch out for them. Most of the kids I talk to in the market, or gas station, or wherever, never see any of our “allies” in the field, and would just as soon leave them home, and struggle along without them.
This situation isn’t going to be likely to have done anything to repair that.
Actually, JJ, you are talking my language. We would be doing Eurabia a favor by cutting off all military alliances. Let them seriously consider Russia, Turkey and other regional despots as their “natural allies”. Only when they look directly into the maw of disaster will they, just maybe, wake-up to life’s realities. If they don’t, there is one lesson that we should well have learned from our own history – never, never help those unwilling to help themselves.
We have discussed the current military policy on standing up to Captors previously. I think it telling that now that the farce of the celebratory group photo has been exposed, we see that the Marines were not joining in.
One thing on the scarf. Many years ago my wife came to Turkey when my USN ship was on a visit there. The Navy counseled us that women should wear head covering when touring Mosques out of respect for Islamic
custom–and the U.S. Navy wives did.
Likewise they wore a head covering when touring Cathedrals out of respect for Catholic custom.
I suspect that this Brit Seaperson(?) was not voluntarily demonstrating respect for Islamic custom. In this particular instance I think it was wrong for the woman to wear the scarf in acquiesance to pressure.
It will be interesting to see just how much, and what kind of pressure, if any, was applied to these personnel.
One thing that was disgraceful was NO support from the mother ship (or whatever). Here was a platform/ship with enough firepower to shred any boats within a mile. And not even warning shots were fired…
At that point, Vice Admiral Horatio Nelson turned over in his grave.
Finis Royal Navy…
That’s right, Oldflyer. There’s a huge distance between showing respect for a host, and being coerced into doing something by your abductors. When I visit houses of worship, I’m always careful to be respectfully attired — but I’m there because I want to be. I guess the same goes for Pelosi’s Hermes scarf, but it just rankles that she’s there in the first place, and that she’s pandering to such a violently misogynistic religion.
This is the key:
“The British, before they became European….”
One of the saddest things to watch is the British people being led by midgets to abandon their proud and noble heritage, and join the ranks of those who tried for centuries but could never conquer them.
Earl –
Well said. The more I thought about this today, the more I realized that I was sad. And ashamed for the British. Always in my heart, I have held them in very high regard, thankful for their culture and ideas (which were so fundamental to the sound development of the U.S.) and admired that in spite of their suffering in WWII, they persistently and bravely pushed forward to the end.
They aren’t perfect – no nation or group of people is. But I always have been encouraged and cheered by them. Now I just feel sad.
Did anyone else out there think it odd that the British allowed their soldiers’ homecoming to be publicized so much? I mean, I saw a picture today of one of the soldiers appearing to open one of the presents he received from Ahmedinejad – almost like it was Christmas! I really think they should have had them get off the plane in private and meet their families in private.
Deana
It will be interesting to see what transpires now. Despite the media hoopla over the return, there are some indications that the Royal Navy is not looking so favorably on their actions.
Hopefully, there will be some serious scrutiny up and down the chain-of-command about the Rules of Engagement when operating as these sailors were. There should also be some serious review of the training and disciplinary standards that are applied.
Still, the early indications, and I emphasize we only have preliminary information, seems to suggest that there was little or no justification for the actions of some of these personnel once they were captured. As I mentioned earlier, there are now group pictures of the release celebration posted on other sites (but apparently not in the MSM) that show the Marines’ posture and attitude was distinctly different from the others. So the standards of behavior may have varied considerably withing the group.
how are you