As more facts and counterfacts dribble out regarding Mark Foley, I’m slowly getting a handle on a bigger picture. Here’s what I see:
Foley was, until recently, a closeted gay. As of about a year ago, the Republican leadership knew that Foley had sent emails to pages. The emails were awkward and bland, but could not reasonably give rise to any concern. Unbeknownst to Republican leadership, Foley had also sent more salacious IMs to pages. As the Hotline points out, there is a huge difference between the emails, which are bland, and the IMs, which are overtly sexual. The Republicans knew of the former, but not the latter. The MSM nevertheless consistently writes of the two in the same voice, making it appear as if the Republicans had seen the IMs as well as the emails.
The pages were sixteen or older. Although, as a parent, I consider sixteen still a child, in the jurisdictions at issue, it is above the age of consent for actual sex. I’m also not entirely certain whether any other laws apply, although I’ll be the first to admit my complete ignorance about the law in the area of child solicitation. Nevertheless, at first glance, there seem to be some problems with the two statutes I’ve seen cited. For example, without knowing more facts, 18 USC § 2251, I don’t see how § 2251 applies here. Although cases may have interpreted the statute differently, a superficial reading indicates that it is limited to situations in which adults try to get children to posing for pictures and videos, or to leave the country for sexual purposes, neither of which seems to apply here. I don’t know if the endlessly long and convoluted Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act is more applicable but that may be a moot point. That act went into effect in 2006 and, as I understand it, Foley’s conduct predated the Act.
Anyway, back to the timeline: As Clarice Feldman explains, Soros-funded groups got hold of the sexual IMs (the ones the Republicans hadn’t seen) back in Spring and held onto them. Using a front website, they eventually placed the emails on the internet and conveniently “discovered” this nonentity of a website just in time for the current election cycle. Since then, in chorus with Republicans (myself included, when I first heard the story), the Democrats — stalwarts of a party that constantly claims Republicans are homophobic — have cheerfully been castigating Foley as a pervert (see here and here for example).
Foley’s conduct does not make for a pretty story, but it’s not the story we first believed. Foley looks like a creep and a predator, but not a criminal. The Republican leadership, on the facts I’ve described above, doesn’t looked as if it had facts sufficient to make a reasonable person act. To my partisan mind, the only ones who look really bad are the Soros groups, which sat on emails they now contend show a crime against children, and the Democrats, generally, who have suddenly started calling a large group of their constitutents “perverts.” In other words, this is not really a sex scandal; it’s just politics as usual.
UPDATE: Mark Levin has more on when people knew about the emails (including the press) and on the fact that the emails didn’t set off any warning bells for anyone.
UPDATE II: And if you want the full “pot calling kettle black” story — that is to say, the reason why the Democrats are not in a position to cast as perversion and political death homosexual scandals or “sex with minors” scandals — Andrew Walden has a rundown of stories about scandals that affected Democrats.
UPDATE III: Thanks for the correction, S. Smith. I’ve changed those “Thomas” references to Mark. They’re not typos, I make, they’re “thinkos.”
Filed under: Democrats, Media matters, Republicans, Sex







Heard an intersting take on the radio this morning. If the Republican leadership had moved against Foley for his homosexual proclivities, they would have been accused of homophobia. Damned it you do and damned if don’t is the word of the day for Republicans.
The MSM nevertheless consistently writes of the two in the same voice, making it appear as if the Republicans had seen the IMs as well as the emails.
isn’t that true though, wouldn’t the infamous Republican NSA spynetwork have tabs on the Democrat enemies as well as Republican rank and file?
It seems hard to believe that Bush the master propagandist and deceiver, would not have his party keeping tabs on what is what. Certainly the Democrats have higher standards in whom they decide to purge or not.
Soros-funded groups got hold of the sexual IMs (the ones the Republicans hadn’t seen)
Do they expect us to believe that the Democrat spy network is GREATER than the Republican one? Come on, that seems a bit farfetched considering what we know to be true. Or at least, what we know the Democrats considers true.
As Clarice Feldman explains, Soros-funded groups got hold of the sexual IMs (the ones the Republicans hadn’t seen) back in Spring and held onto them. Using a front website, they eventually placed the emails on the internet and conveniently “discovered” this nonentity of a website just in time for the current election cycle.
That’s rather convoluted, you know. How does this conspiracy theory differ from when republicans talk about 9/11 conspiracy theories?
Allow homosexuals to be Boy Scout leaders and if they molest scouts–you have a lawsuit; dismiss homosexual scout leaders for their proclivities–you have a lawsuit.
Does anyone question why heterosexual males aren’t Girl Scout leaders? Is it me or is it a natural response to question the motivations of one who wanted to be?
Heard an intersting take on the radio this morning. If the Republican leadership had moved against Foley for his homosexual proclivities, they would have been accused of homophobia. Damned it you do and damned if don’t is the word of the day for Republicans.
Comment by erp | October 3, 2006
Conscientious propagandists do try to attempt to acquire the checkmate, the coup de grace, and the damned if you do damned if you don’t paradox. Such a situation is quite a boon success for those operating in propaganda for any side.
If your opponent is always wrong, regardless, then it becomes much easier to use your propaganda to convince people that you are right.
[...] As is Bookworm: Foley’s conduct does not make for a pretty story, but it’s not the story we first believed. Foley looks like a creep and a predator, but not a criminal. The Republican leadership, on the facts I’ve described above, doesn’t looked as if it had facts sufficient to make a reasonable person act. To my partisan mind, the only ones who look really bad are the Soros groups, which sat on emails they now contend show a crime against children, and the Democrats, generally, who have suddenly started calling a large group of their constitutents “perverts.” In other words, this is not really a sex scandal; it’s just politics as usual. [...]
Just remember erp, for the Democrats to accuse foley of being homophobic, they would have had the power to withold the atrociously worded IMs from the public eye. It would be hard to defend Foley with those out in the public. If we are to believe in the convoluted conspiracy thesis that Soros was behind this little “I spy operation”, then it would be easy to believe that Democrats were ready for both situations. However, if the Democrats were unable to acquire control over the IMs, then if the IMs were released, the Democrats would be forced to attack the Republicans for not getting rid of Foley when they had the chance.
So the coup de grace only occurs if Soros had the proper piece in play. It is very unlikely that a billionaire like Soros, would attempt to hurt the Republicans, given the Republican tax cuts for the rich.
sorry, accuse the republicans for attacking Foley as homophobia.
Mark Foley.
via Drudge:
Former Congressman Mark Foley (R-FL) interrupted a vote on the floor of the House in 2003 to engage in Internet sex with a high school student who had served as a congressional page, according to new Internet instant messages provided to ABC News by former pages.
ABC News now has obtained 52 separate instant message exchanges, which former pages say were sent by Foley, using the screen name Maf54, to two different boys under the age of 18.
This message was dated April 2003, at approximately 7 p.m., according to the message time stamp.
The House voted that evening on HR 1559, Emergency War Time supplemental appropriations.
According to another message, Foley also invites the teen and a friend to come to his house near Capitol Hill so they can drink alcohol.
Teen: are you going to be in town over the veterans day weekend
Maf54: I may be now that your coming
Maf54: who you coming to visit
Teen: haha good stuff
Teen: umm no one really
Maf54: we will be adjourned ny then
Teen: oh good
Maf54: by
Maf54: then we can have a few drinks
Maf54: lol
Teen: yes yes
Maf54: your not old enough to drink
Teen: shhh…
Maf54: ok
Teen: that’s not what my ID says
Teen: lol
Maf54: ok
Teen: I probably shouldn’t be telling you that huh
Maf54: we may need to drink at my house so we don’t get busted
We all know who is to blame here. The Democrats and the mainstream media.
My goodness. Did Bookie just apologize for Foley (chair of the Missing and Exploited Children Caucus) by claiming he didn’t technically break any law? I guess that would be an example of a conservative applying her steadfast, immutable standards, rather than daring to use her best judgment and call a pervert a pervert.
Read into it what you will, Pastor Ray. I thought what I said in this and earlier posts was that what he did was disgusting and creepy and inappropriate. That doesn’t make it illegal. One is an opinion; the other might be a fact (and I say “might be” because, as I freely admitted, I’m not conversant with the law in this area). Also please spell out why you think it is perverted? As a mother, I don’t like the idea of an adult approaching my son in a homosexual way, but I’ve been well schooled into understand that (a) teenagers can have sex without my say so if they’re over 16 and (b) homosexuality is not deviant.
I don’t actually have a problem with homosexuality provided that (a) human history isn’t turned upsidedown by making an ill-considered rush into legalizing gay marriage and (b) schools aren’t used as a forum to convince children that a homosexual lifestyle is a good alternative. As regards the latter point, it’s not — that is, homosexuality is not a good lifestyle choice.
While I have no problem with homosexuals (many of the dearest people in my life are gay), I don’t want my children to believe that a lifestyle that has much higher incidences of sexually transmitted diseases; drug and alcohol abuse; partner abuse; and social marginalization is going to be as good a choice for them as any other. So, unless my kids are hardwired for homosexuality (something I accepted as true once I learned about how Soviets attempted to “deprogram” gays in Gulags, and how Nazis simply murdered them, including my great uncle), I want them leaning in the heterosexual direction.
You’re very welcome, Bookworm. Usually I’m a silent visitor here, being the shy, introverted sort. As long as I’m on a roll, I’d like to say that your site is wonderful and a daily stop for me. Thank you.
bookworm,
i suggest you employ the 24 hour rule (or in your case the 72 hour rule). cause as more nad more comes out on this, you’re gonna be doing a lot of backpedalling and your pathological apoligia for this sort of behavior (and worse, the behavior of a callous house leadership that looks like it may have kept a lid on this to protect a seat) is going to shine a spotlight on the lengths that you will go to provide coer for your party.
it aint gonna be pretty. actually, it’s already a pretty discusting display.
peace
Nice to hear from you, dagon. Vaya con dios.
I think there may be a bit of backpedaling and “pathological apoligia” for the callous opposition leadership attempting to milk this “folie a Foley” for their own political advantage. No one on the right excuses Foley’s IM’ing pederasty (he is not a pedophile, btw; but a middleaged and venal gay man who likes adolescent boys, and homosexual men have evinced such predilections since Athens was led by Pericles). Foley has resigned. A Democratic congressman, with the ironic name of Studds, was several years ago involved in a sexual liaison with an underage Congressional page; he did not resign.
Foley’s conduct is deplorable and I’d anticipate he will face criminal prosecution. I think the case is yet to be made the leadership “covered” for Foley. I think a case can be made the Democrats are quite willing to manipulate this whole sordid affair to attack Republican leadership and suppress Republican votes; that they are willing to let their gay constitutency take a hit for the sake of political advantage; and their concern is less “the welfare of the children in Congress’ custody” than the political fortunes of a party desperate to regain power, damn the cost.
Btw I am not a Republican. I am reg IND. As a career civil servant it is a personal ethic of mine to not have political affiliation. I have duties to discharge regardless of which band of venal and self-serving politicians holds the White House or a majority in Congress.
z
it really isn’t the dems who are leading the train to run hastert out of his office. and frankly, i don’t partisanship has much place in this sort of proceeding; i’m not being naieve. i KNOW that’s what is going down on both sides but it really is besides the point in terms of how i interpret it.
but just remember this, as with harriet miers, it will be the republican rank and file that throw hastert to the wolves no matter how much one would like to turn the conversation around around and start talking bad about the dems. this is a republican scandal and the fallout will rightfully come pouring down on the heads of their leadership.
peace
Dagon, What’s with the refusal to use capital letters for names and at the beginning of sentences? Is that some kind of political statement?
laziness. For peace perhaps.
I think when the Left sees “going on at both sides” they sort of gloss over the relevant differences. I mean, it just isn’t a priority for some reason what people do, instead the priority is who they are and what their status is. It has little about the personal personality of moral agents, because it seems both sides are the same and one need not do anything about it.
Y, I thought it might be about not wanting to make the lower case letters feel inferior. We have to be careful about damaging their self-esteem. When nobody is special, then everybody is special. Isn’t that special!
Very cute, judy. Is this enough to be careful about damaging the self-esteem of the littles?
http://humour.busythumbs.com/users/a/ahemes2/humour/images/beaverwars.jpg
Y, He seems well armed enough to protect himself and any defenseless letters that are under his care. Now that we’ve gone about 180 degrees away from the subject of BW’s post, maybe we should return control of the discussion to those who want to talk about the Foley affair. (Although I was kind of hoping Dagon would explain himself.)
Unless of course, Foley has some other secrets in closets concerning small animals, of course. Then it might just be 90 degrees, instead of a full 180 reverse.
judyrose,
“Dagon, What’s with the refusal to use capital letters for names and at the beginning of sentences? Is that some kind of political statement?”
–nah, it’s just a left over habit from the old bbs days. it also discourages imitators, who were prevalent on an old board that i used to frequent. so subsequently, it’s just been integrated into the way i communicate in forums.
peace
Dagon, Thanks for answering. I find it a little hard to read.
Only if you need periods to demarcate your sentences, judy? I gloss over most grammar peculiarities, unless it is syntaxical in context.
Y, I can gloss over them too, especially when I know they are the products of a quick mind and fast typing. It was more a question about why someone would choose to write in a way that changes the whole appearance of printed text, and makes it harder to take in, when the (supposed) purpose is to be understood.
back on topic,
as i stated to z, this foley imbruglio will most likely take the form of republican leadership cannibalizing dennis hastert; and NOT center around the dems, as many of you in here would like to be the case. not a day later and look what has already come to pass:
first, boehner is the first rep to throw hastert under the bus, then he says that losing foley’s seat is a foregone conclusion and NOW roy blount (the third ranking republican) joins the chorus in saying that he would have handled things differently than hastert.
http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/news/state/15678097.htm
so, kvetch about the dems all you want people. it appears that you are among the few to once again fall for the tactic of ‘moving the goalpost’ that arises whenever you are forced to take a good long look at this group of scoundrels that are presently in control of the country. because it make make you take a good long look at yourselves.
peace
I think you’re right, Dagon, that the Republicans will cannibalize themselves, which is sad. Foley’s a sick man who took advantage of his position to manipulate young people — which, while it may or may not be illegal, is certainly immoral. There just isn’t evidence, though, to show that the Republicans were complicit in this or even covered anything up. It’s therefore stupid for them to fall on their swords. Likewise, there’s every reason to believe that the Dems planned this political hit months ago, which is clever on the one hand, but equally immoral on the other if they want to phrase the whole thing in terms of protecting children. If they were so anxious to protect children, why sit on the scandal? So I go back to my original point: Foley looks like a pervert who preys on young people; the Republicans look hapless; and the Dems look like people who will sacrifice children’s interests for political capital.
“There just isn’t evidence, though, to show that the Republicans were complicit in this or even covered anything up.”
–it looks like kirk fordham is taking the fall and depending on whether or not he goes down with a bang or a wimper will go a long way towards determining any complicity. but it aint looking good for your argument book
[They said Fordham had repeatedly warned Hastert's staff about Foley's "problem" with pages, but little was done.
The complaint about Foley was brought to the chairman of the page board, Congressman John Shimkus (R-IL), last spring, and he then consulted with the Clerk of the House of Representatives, Jeff Trandahl.
At Fordham's urging, according to the sources, the matter was not given to the full board, and instead Congressman Foley was privately approached and told to stop all contact with the page he had been e-mailing.
People familiar with Fordham’s side of the story, however, said Fordham was being used as a scapegoat by Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert.]
“Likewise, there’s every reason to believe that the Dems planned this political hit months ago, which is clever on the one hand, but equally immoral on the other if they want to phrase the whole thing in terms of protecting children.”
–book, you’re basing this is NOTHING other than your own twisted need to paint the dems as villains. i wonder what any of your law professors would say to that
“If they were so anxious to protect children, why sit on the scandal?”
–the democratic leadership DIDN’T. the republican leadership DID!
“So I go back to my original point: Foley looks like a pervert who preys on young people; the Republicans look hapless; and the Dems look like people who will sacrifice children’s interests for political capital.”
–yeah, a republican congressman preys on young pages, his republican advocate lobbies the house republican leadership to sit on the knowledge (allegedly for up to 11 years) and you somehow get that it’s the dems who will sacrifice children for political capital and the repubs are merely ‘hapless’
thanks for that book. really! i don’t think there is anything that i could have said that could more damage your credibility or call into sharper focus the depths of your partisanship.
peace
link on fordham
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/10/top_gop_staffer.html
more:
[Aide Says He Warned Hastert Of Foley 2 Years Ago
Get breaking news alerts
(AP) WASHINGTON A senior congressional aide said Wednesday that he alerted the House Speaker Dennis Hastert's office in 2004 about worrisome conduct by former Rep. Mark Foley with teenage pages -- the earliest known alert to the GOP leadership.
Kirk Fordham told The Associated Press that when he was told about Foley's inappropriate behavior toward pages, he had "more than one conversation with senior staff at the highest level of the House of Representatives asking them to intervene."
The conversations took place long before the e-mail scandal broke, Fordham said, and at least a year earlier than members of the House GOP leadership have acknowledged.]
http://cbs2chicago.com/politics/local_story_277155615.html
peace
Dagon, as I understand the facts, the Republicans had the emails, which are not grounds for anything, unless you want to assume (do you?) that all gay men who inquire about former or current youthful employees are pedophiles. As I also understand the facts, the Dems actually had the IMs, which are where the real sleazy stuff took place. Big dif.
well, you understand wrong. the dems had NOTHING!
a lefty web site had the im’s but guess what they did? they turned them over to the fbi month’s ago.
try again
peace
for you book
“FBI Knew in July About Foley E-Mails to Teen
Meanwhile, Private Handling of Matter by a Few House Republicans Receives Bipartisan Criticism
By Charles Babington and Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, October 3, 2006; Page A11
The FBI acknowledged yesterday that it did not begin an investigation in late July after receiving copies of e-mails sent in 2005 by then-Rep. Mark Foley (R-Fla.) to a Louisiana teenager — messages that troubled the boy’s parents.
Key House Republicans learned of the e-mails in 2005 and chose to deal with Foley privately, warning him to cease contact with the 16-year-old former House page. Top aides to Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) did not inform him about the incident, Hastert said yesterday, and he defended their actions in a Capitol Hill news conference.
Officials from the liberal-leaning group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington said yesterday that they received copies of the Louisiana e-mails on July 21 and turned them over to the FBI the same day. Melanie Sloan, the group’s executive director, said she spoke with a special agent in the Washington field office, and she questioned yesterday why the FBI did not investigate Foley weeks ago.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/02/AR2006100200333.html
peace
Dagon: we’re back to the emails, which had nothing in them! They fell into the “well!?” category, but that is not grounds to go on a convulsive witch hunt. I think the Republicans did the right thing, which was to say, we know there’s nothing wrong with what you did (to the extent we know what you did), but don’t do it again. The big question is about the IMs. There is no reason to believe that the Republicans knew about the IMs before last week’s media revelation. Do you have more on that point? As to the IMs, what did people on both sides of the aisle know and when did they know it?
“I think the Republicans did the right thing, which was to say, we know there’s nothing wrong with what you did (to the extent we know what you did), but don’t do it again.”
–well, apparently boehner, roy blount, kirk fordham (who just resigned) and foley himself don’t agree with you in terms of the extent of the damaging evidence that they had prior to all of the recent evidence coming out. so bad was what they DID KNOW (as long as 2 years ago according to fordham) was so bad that he had to BEG the republican leadership not to take stronger action and they let the situation percolate.
THAT is why all of these people are resigning, not that foley did anything illegal (which remains to be seen as i’m sure you’ll agree).
“The big question is about the IMs. There is no reason to believe that the Republicans knew about the IMs before last week’s media revelation. Do you have more on that point? As to the IMs, what did people on both sides of the aisle know and when did they know it?”
–the dems knew NOTHING. apparently the repubs knew enough that virtually everyone involved is resigning in discrace or running the other way as fast as they can. and that’s a good question to ask yourself. if this was merely unseemly and NOT any kind of ‘look the other way while this pervert talks sexy to teenage boys’ situation, then why the hell are the republicans running from this to the degree that they are?
as usual, more to come. the im’s could only be the tip of the iceberg.
peace
Yes, I agree, the dems knew nothing. See no evil, hear no evil, and believe in no evil except the evil one must do to acquire power. Oh wait, that’s not part of the saying, is it.
Make a virtue of discretion. You are bad if you resign, and you are bad if you don’t resign. Catch 22. Or shall we say Caught 22.
I don’t get it. Mark Foley was a closet gay with a prediliction for young boys. He tended to vote liberal and his voting record on legal protections for minors was in direct contradiction to his private life. No it turns out that he is an alcoholic and he claims to have been a victim of sexual molestation. I would have thought the Dems would consider him a swell guy. Who would of figured?
danny
“He tended to vote liberal…”
—NAME ONE EXAMPLE
“…and his voting record on legal protections for minors was in direct contradiction to his private life.”
—exactly! that’s sort of the point about him being a hypocrit. using his position and influence to (potentially) skirt around laws that he himself was helping to strenghten.
“No it turns out that he is an alcoholic and he claims to have been a victim of sexual molestation.”
—he’s just trying to paint himself as a victim to deflect any further damage.
peace
Guilt motivated Foley to support better protections against minors, not only because of his sexual orientation but because of his personal experiences. And of course he knows and is guilty to know, that there are other people like him in the world, without his restraint. The same guilt motivates McCain to be against torture.
Simple analysis of human dynamics and behaviors are forbidden to such folk as dagon, it seems.